Home page of Satellite Internet and Information

Satellite Internet Forum.

Welcome, Guest.
Welcome to this satellite broadband discussion forum. Wherever you are and whatever your problem we are here to help each other. Connecting to the internet via satellite is not always easy but is critically important to those in remote places or with poor terrestrial infrastructure. Both service providers and customers are encouraged to contribute. Register at the bottom of the forum home page if you wish to contribute or ask question. Read the Forum rules.
      Satellite Internet Forum : Home Page          
Pages: 1

The new Evolution X3

(Read 7985 times)
Ex Member
Ex Member


Sep 13th, 2008 at 11:48am  
Ok so BW is doing their part in getting iDirects new mistake out to customers.
I say new mistake cause iDirect said in the past they wont do S2 technology. Now they are ...
Just like the popular saying that goes:  "If you cant beat'em, join em"

So my questions are as follows:

1) does the new modem have  a built in fan? i find this to be very very important.

2) I am not exactly very keen on the W6 hub BW uses. I feel like they screw things up. I am not saying BW is to blame but the W6 hub guys. Am22 has always been 1000 times better.
With the new X3 and its oh superb features will there be noticeable improvements in terms of http surfing, and overall system goodness?

so as a user and a system admin  i care for the basic things like what the modem can deliver for me.
Will it make my surfing experience better?
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Ex Member
Ex Member


Reply #1 - Sep 13th, 2008 at 2:03pm  
As for BW, I am not drinking their kool-aid but they appear to do decent job of providing customer service.  Which is huge.

As you probably know, an "iDirect Service" is only as good as the technicians and support personnel who are charged with installing, operating, and maintaining the hub and its services.  Some companies (no names) go into the S-ISP business half-way with significant personnel shortcommings and incompetencies.  The one thing that is common with a well-run S-ISP is that they pay their techs well (providing a solid continuity base), and put enough money towards the space segment to get a solid user experience out of their networks and the contention ratios established within their service plans. Kudos to them.

A lot of field users are quick to blame the technology (iDirect, Hughes, Linkway, etc) for their problems when what they really needed to do was find a reputable service provider with competent techicians and customer support base (help desk, etc) that can talk them thru point, software loading, and just WHAT their modem is doing at any given time. When you have techs that cannot explain something, or cannot help with pointing, your days are numbered as a service provider.

As for iDirect Technologies and DVBS2.....you are right.  They said they would not move in that direction.  Now they are.  I personally think it was all in an effort to keep their business model competetive.  If you want to keep making money, you make an azimuth correction in the technology and keep pluggin' along.

As for the X3, it wont do anything more than what your 3100 will do.  You will get to take advantage of the waveform efficiencies on the outbound (30% more efficient)and also get better link availability through adaptive coding and modulation.  Dont look for any bells and whistles beyond the efficiency and better link availability.  I am unsure of the fan question.  I dont use 3100s or X3s. Most of my experience is with 7000 and 8000 series satellite routers.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Eric Johnston
Senior Member
***
Offline


Personal text from Profile,
Options, Top line

Posts: 2109
Reply #2 - Sep 13th, 2008 at 4:00pm  
If anyone wants to learn more about the way iDirect have made use of DBV-S2 then there is suggested reading matter here IDirect Technical Systems Overview- Evolution DVB-S2-ACM

The benefit of DVB-S2 is increased satellite capacity whilst still using the same power and bandwidth as previously needed for QPSK.  The adaptive approach means that link margins in clear sky conditions can be exploited to give extra information rate throughput.

Regarding the original posting above I would prefer anyone with gripes about things should to communicate directly with the people concerned and try to help them resolve any issues.

Best regards, Eric.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Ex Member
Ex Member


Reply #3 - Sep 13th, 2008 at 4:26pm  
I would like to add that we had weeks of interference on AM22 and according to our hosts Arquiva RSSC asked Eutelsat to help try and cure it .........in terms of efficiency we expect to acheive 8/9 qpsk on 99% of the systems whcih will give around 50-60% more usable Bandwidth and if we can get 16 qpsk up to 80% , that means a whole lot more bandwidth for the customers =))
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Ex Member
Ex Member


Reply #4 - Sep 13th, 2008 at 8:48pm  
Quote:
I would like to add that we had weeks of interference on AM22 and according to our hosts Arquiva RSSC asked Eutelsat to help try and cure it .........in terms of efficiency we expect to acheive 8/9 qpsk on 99% of the systems whcih will give around 50-60% more usable Bandwidth and if we can get 16 qpsk up to 80% , that means a whole lot more bandwidth for the customers =))


Thank you for that insight Mr. Walker. it sure explains a lot!

I will be ordering two modems from BW soon so hopefully this is the right path ...

I still am not comfortable going to W6. But I guess i have no choice in the matter.

Eric Johnston wrote on Sep 13th, 2008 at 4:00pm:
Regarding the original posting above I would prefer anyone with gripes about things should to communicate directly with the people concerned and try to help them resolve any issues.



No gripes with any company. Just saying iDirect said it wont release a s2 system now they are doing it and companies like BW are having to find customers for them.

I will upgrade to the new modem so its not like iam objecting.
I do however wish they would include a fan in their system.

Eric Johnston wrote on Sep 13th, 2008 at 4:00pm:
If anyone wants to learn more about the way iDirect have made use of DBV-S2 then there is suggested reading matter here IDirect Technical Systems Overview- Evolution DVB-S2-ACM



i did read the pdf file. its very nice.
i have to ask though, if you look on page 3 the ACM picture shows the code MODCOD. what does that stand for?
also, does the infiniti series do ACM currently?
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Ex Member
Ex Member


Reply #5 - Sep 13th, 2008 at 9:31pm  
The iNFINITI family does not do ACM.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Ex Member
Ex Member


Reply #6 - Sep 15th, 2008 at 10:10am  
MODCOD- is just the short form of Modulation and Coding.
Modulations include QPSK, 8PSK, 16PSK, 32PSK etc.
Codings and FECs schemes include 2/3, 3/4, 4/5, 8/9, LDPC (Low Density Parity check coding) etc.
As explained in the doc. depending on the satellite contour antenna size, antenna pointing etc, the VSAT will be on the corresponding MODCOD.
Outroute for instance, 8PSK 8/9 is better than QPSK 3/4.
Thanks.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Ex Member
Ex Member


Reply #7 - Sep 15th, 2008 at 10:29am  
Dear Cylent,
As said by TDMAMike,'' You will get to take advantage of the waveform efficiencies on the outbound (30% more efficient)''

Bentley Walker would like to give away this extra bandwidth to the customers. So yes, as a VSAT user and system admin you will see the difference/improvement.
Thanks
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Ex Member
Ex Member


Reply #8 - Sep 16th, 2008 at 7:31am  
Quote:
Dear Cylent,
As said by TDMAMike,'' You will get to take advantage of the waveform efficiencies on the outbound (30% more efficient)''

Bentley Walker would like to give away this extra bandwidth to the customers. So yes, as a VSAT user and system admin you will see the difference/improvement.
Thanks


ok sounds good.
now when you say outbound do you mean "Upload" from the client side?

BW does a good job with the bandwidth. i just wish they'd be more flexible as to how they allocate the speed to the user. in other words if i am allowed 40GB per month then don't throttle me so hard. let me have fast speeds for like 20GB then decrease later.

I have made many suggestions to them but it seems like i am barking up the wrong tree.  only time will tell what will happen.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Ex Member
Ex Member


Reply #9 - Sep 16th, 2008 at 9:51am  
Outbound= Downlink from the client's end.

Your suggestions are taken on board and you are definitely not barking up the wrong tree.
Distributing the bandwidth to all customers in the best/fair way is Bentley Walker's goal.
Liaise with our team directly to discuss more.

Thanks,
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Ex Member
Ex Member


Reply #10 - Sep 16th, 2008 at 6:10pm  
Quote:
Liaise with our team directly to discuss more.

Thanks,


i'll try that.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Ex Member
Ex Member


Reply #11 - Sep 24th, 2008 at 12:09am  
----------------
***********

Anybody else wanna take a shot at this?

in other words -- i want to hear real world experience with the new Evolution X3. Not some marketing hype.

----------------
***********

ERIC:
In a different thread you described the difference between DRO and PLL LNB's:

DRO LNBs have poor frequency stability and poor phase noise performance.  They are fine for receiving large bandwidth carriers like 27.500 Msps symbol rate DVB-S TV carriers.   If you try to tune to a narrow carrier then your receiver may never find it so make sure your AFC sweep range is set wide enough.  With very narrow carriers you may tune to the wrong one carrier.   If you receive 8-PSK or 16-QAM low bit rate carriers you may get a high bit error rate even if the Eb/No is very high.

PLL LNBs have superior frequency stability and better phase noise performance and are suitable for receiving narrow bandwidth carriers, e.g. 64 - 1000 ksps, and carriers using advanced modulation methods such as 8-PSK and 16-QAM.   External reference PLL LNBs allow you to use an indoor 10 MHz reference oscillator in a temperature controlled oven or a reference 10 MHz source locked to GPS or other atomic reference clock, giving the best frequency accuracy, stability and phase noise performance.  

http://www.satsig.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=any1;action=display;num=1221997...


So my question to you now is:
I know the infiniti uses DRO and the new X3 has to have PLL. can you please explain the utter need for PLL now?

----next---
Evolution X3
by looking at the pdf file for the unit from iDirect it says the following:

http://www.idirect.net/galleries/flash-video/SPEC_SHEET_Evolution_X3.pdf


Carrier Size:

Rate: Downstream (DVB-S2/ACM)
Symbol Rate: 1-45Msps  (What is msps?)
Max Info Rate: Up to 160 Mbps*  (*The processing capability of an individual remote will be less than the stated maximum carrier size)

Heres the fun part:

Rate: Upstream (D-TDMA)  -- hmm. so upload is still crappy then?
Symbol Rate: 128ksps - 5Msps
Max Info Rate: Up to 8Mbps* (*The processing capability of an individual remote will be less than the stated maximum carrier size)

Modulation:
Downstream: QPSK, 8PSK, 16APSK
Upstream: BPSK, QPSK, 8PSK

iDirect infinity series
Now looking at the infiniti pdf file. http://www.talia.net/satellite/idirect_series_3000_datasheet.pdf
we see its TDM/TDMA with MF-TDMA

Symbol Rate:
Downstream: 64 ksps up to 11.5 Msps
Upstream: 64 ksps up to 2.875 Msps

Modulation:
Downstream: QPSK (BPSK*, 8PSK*)
Upstream: QPSK (BPSK*)

---

i dont know about you guys but this looks like only its improved half way. iDirect has a new system up their sleaves and they wanna push this out as fast as possible. at least it feels like that.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Eric Johnston
Senior Member
***
Offline


Personal text from Profile,
Options, Top line

Posts: 2109
Reply #12 - Sep 24th, 2008 at 9:46am  
You need PLL type LNBs particularly for low symbol rate carriers those using advanced modulation techniques.  The higher the symbol rate the less the need for PLL LNBs and for symbol rates like 27.5 Msps DRO LNBs will continue to be used.   Note the evolution X3 has software switchable 10 MHz references for both BUC and LNB, so you can use external reference PLL LNB if you wish.  The config option file has an AFC sweep range for receive carrier acquisition.

sps means symbols per second.

The sps of a DVB-S2/ACM carrier is constant, e.g. 1 Msps.
The individual symbols are bursts of sinewave, each with a particular phase angle and amplitude.
In BSPK there are two different phase angles, so each symbol represents 1 bit, 0 or 1
In QPSK there are four different phase angles, so each symbol represents 2 bits, 00, 01, 10 or 11
In 8PSK there are eight different phase angles, so each symbol represents 3 bits, 000, 001, 010, 011, 100, 101, 110 or 111
In 16-APSK there are sixteen phase and amplitude positions, so each symbol represents 4 bits. 0000, 0001 etc.

From this you can work out that, for the same carrier symbol rate and bandwidth, that the transmission data rate of the data is 1,2,3,4 Mbit/s.  The transmission rate date comprises information plus FEC so the information rate varies from about 0.4 to 0.879 of the transmission rate.  Note that to make 16-APSK work you need a very high Eb/No and low phase noise.

The modulation and coding method on the outlink from the hub to the remotes is based on DVB-S2/ACM and allows for the modulation and coding to be changed dynamically from block to block, according to which remote site is the intended recipient of the block of data.  So a remote site that is at beam centre in clear sky gets a 16-APSK block at 0.879 FEC, while a remote site at beam edge during rain may get a BPSK block at 0.4 FEC.

There is nothing wrong with D-TDMA.

The evolution X3 marks a definite technical advance which will get more data throughput out of the same satellite resource, but you need good remote antennas, good pointing, low cross-pol interference, high Eb/No and low phase noise. It is not just marketing hype, the extra data capacity per transponder will be appreciated - I hope !

Best regards, Eric
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Ex Member
Ex Member


Reply #13 - Sep 25th, 2008 at 12:21am  
thank you eric for the great reply.

so now on my current system i am using NJR2184HH.
Its frequencies are 10.95 to 11.70 GHz
i assume this is a low level per your description?
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Ex Member
Ex Member


Reply #14 - Sep 25th, 2008 at 2:24am  
That was a good read Eric.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Pages: 1