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Tooway user in need of Counselling

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IanH-Powys
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Jul 20th, 2010 at 12:44pm  
I have had a tooway system installed at our farm in wales for over 9 months and apart from the first few days when we were stunned by the performance i can only say that subsequently the performance has been poor, with a good servicefor 20% of the time an adequate service for 60% of the time and a dire service for 20% of the time.

Issues seem to revolve around, constant drops in downlink, 3 or 4 times a day,
Inability of modem to issue new IPs via DCHP after loss of downlink.
and even when connected constant loss of connection or bandwidth.

this morning it took 1.25 hours for the modem to achieve a lock ... even though the DS locked in under 5 mins

Not happy......

IanH in Powys
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tortella
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Reply #1 - Jul 20th, 2010 at 1:13pm  
Are you using KA or KU?
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IanH-Powys
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Reply #2 - Jul 20th, 2010 at 2:12pm  
ku i believe
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tortella
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Reply #3 - Jul 20th, 2010 at 2:16pm  
Well long as your alignment is ok the service you are receiving is unacceptable. I have heard that there has been reported hardware problems so I would follow this up with your provider. It would be good to know about other people's quality of service in Wales also. Have you contacted your provider with regard to troubleshooting the issue?
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Eric Johnston
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Reply #4 - Jul 20th, 2010 at 2:26pm  
The dish for the Ka band version looks like this below:
...
There is a subreflector in front and the transmit/receive assembly is underneath with the feed tube pointing upwards and forwards.

A typical dish for the Ku band version is shown below:
...
It is larger, white, and the transmit/receive components are larger and distinct.  The feed horn faces backwards towards the dish.

The Ka band system works at higher frequencies and is more susceptible to outages during heavy rain. During the last month or so (particularly around 17th June) there have been heavy rain storms/floods in Southern France / Northern Italy (Turin teleport) and this may have affected your service.

However, your service appears to have been poor for very much more time than is explainable by heavy rain.  Maybe a cable connector has deteriorated due to moisture ingress. Maybe a hardware fault.  Maybe dish depointing.  Before doing anything, send full details of your fault symptoms and story to your service provider and ask for help. They can remotely test your site, look at long term graphs etc, and determine if your transmit and receive signal levels are as expected.

Best regards, Eric.
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europe-satellite.com
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Reply #5 - Jul 20th, 2010 at 2:39pm  
IanH-Powys wrote
Quote:
I have had a tooway system installed at our farm in wales for over 9 months and apart from the first few days when we were stunned by the performance i can only say that subsequently the performance has been poor, with a good servicefor 20% of the time an adequate service for 60% of the time and a dire service for 20% of the time.

Issues seem to revolve around, constant drops in downlink, 3 or 4 times a day,
Inability of modem to issue new IPs via DCHP after loss of downlink.
and even when connected constant loss of connection or bandwidth.

this morning it took 1.25 hours for the modem to achieve a lock ... even though the DS locked in under 5 mins

Not happy......

IanH in Powys

...

Hi Eric and other Tooway Ku users,

Skylogic reported last week problems at the Tooway hub in Turin with the Eurobird3A transponder (ku band only). There is a maintenance on the Tooway Ku HUB in Turin at the moment and modems can lose connection for a short period (RX solid but no internet). As soon everything is back to normal we will inform everybody (and I am sure also your provider) via this board and via our Twitter page. Hopefully the situation will improve after maintenance - lets all keep our fingers crossed!

Look also to our previous posting regarding maintenance.

Problems have been reported from users (Eurobird3 A spot beam) all over Europe.

In a normal situation when the tooway service is functioning correctly we would suggest that you always check your traffic-use first when the system slows down - (there is an hourly/daily/weekly and monthly limit). In most cases when the system slows down it is due to users passing their limit (an hour or daily limit can easily be passed). If this is not the case then it is necessary to contact your provider so they can look at any other possible causes of a slow-running system.

ps. In general, a small (60cm) dark dish is KA, a big white (100cm) is KU.

Our Twitter name : eurosat
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« Last Edit: Feb 20th, 2015 at 4:33pm by Admin1 »  
 
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tortella
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Reply #6 - Jul 20th, 2010 at 3:35pm  
from reading his post, I don't think it is a FAP - no mention of being slowed down. More than likely HW, alignment or QOS.
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IanH-Powys
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Reply #7 - Jul 20th, 2010 at 4:03pm  
we have a Ku system....

I have had more sensible input in the last two hours from this forum than 6 months talking to ISP. they get a phone call or email about once a week. and we get a response once a blue moon...

we have been complaining about poor performance since November.. and i am now told to expect an engineer this afternoon...BUT that i will have to pay if the system is not at fault... WTF ...shame as i have an independent network engineer coming to give our network the once over at 9am

we are now monitoring the connection with Ping plotter and that shows how the connection is performing and its not looking good..

how do you post images or .pdfs in posts?

Ian h
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Reply #8 - Jul 20th, 2010 at 6:55pm  
To put images in this forum..

Make the image reasonably small pixel dimensions.
Save using jpg compression set to medium or low quality.
If it is a cartoon type image use gif format with minimum number of colours.
Put the image on a server somewhere or send it to me eric@satsig.net to go on this server saying which forum topic it belongs to.
When your write your message do it like this:
{img}http://w ww.example.com/images/imagefilename.jpg{/img}
Use square brackets not squiggly ones.

For pdfs I suggest:
Make an image of the pdf and put the image.
Copy the text from the pdf and paste.
Send the pdf to me to put on this server.

Best regards, Eric.
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« Last Edit: Feb 20th, 2015 at 4:33pm by Admin1 »  
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europe-satellite.com
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Reply #9 - Jul 20th, 2010 at 6:58pm  
Hi,

If you read the post there is NO mention of FAP at all. We always advise users when a system slows down or performance is bad in general, to check usage FIRST (this can be done online 24/7) and then contact the agent/ISP for more information etc. this is the ONLY way to find out whats going on and to indicate and solve a problem.

Its better to rely on FACTS and not on FICTION. Mentioning hardware problems or QoS problems without the full facts is not going to help.

Besides problems due to the weather, most of the other problems are related to USAGE OR relating to routers, local network problems, wrong settings etc. etc.

Infact, user Tortella is a good example of this - all complaints from him in the past 12 months were ALWAYS related to exceeding usage limits - we still have a long file of complaints and proof of his user statistics which always show excess above limit.

So again we advise everyone to check their user limit FIRST and then if this proves not to be the case THEN contact provider who can go through other possible causes of system poor performance.

We also advise everyone to complain immediately (if system is slow - having first ruled out excess usage) to an agent or ISP and not days or weeks later because then it is impossible to trace the root of the problem.

Different providers use different graphical displays but they all should give you info about your usage per hour, day, week and month.

ps. This is it for this week because we have to install 8 new Tooway Ku systems in 2/3 days, hope we can make it Smiley We will post some install pictures on this board next week.

Frits Blomsma
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Reply #10 - Jul 20th, 2010 at 7:32pm  
I agree that exceeding a FAP limit is a likely cause if a site slows dramatically.

The customer may be able to access a web page at the service provider showing their traffic status versus FAP limits per hour, 4 hours, day, week, 4 weeks.

I would not have thought that unusual anomalies like IP address failures would be generated by exceeding traffic limits and suffering a temporary slow down.

Best regards, Eric.  (two posts deleted above)

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tortella
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Reply #11 - Jul 20th, 2010 at 7:38pm  
I really don't think his problem is FAP. On analysis of his problem and sympthoms seen, FAP couldn't possibly been causing his issue.
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IanH-Powys
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Reply #12 - Jul 20th, 2010 at 7:39pm  
thanks for the comments so far.

we certainly fell foul of the FAP when system was first installed and had great fun streaming video....

then within 3 days were capped.....

upgraded to next package , and the next one... and indeed have had to buy spot bandwidth or tokens during a busy period.

interested to read that via our Spanish Friends you can get web access to the Tooway Server to view you bandwidth...

that option doesn't seem to be available from our UK reseller.. and if it was would have saved numerous phone calls. also why cant you sign up for an email alert when you are approaching a FAP event -- it could even offer a token ---- sales opportunity there me thinks.

I will try to download some pages to our website later for those who like reading error files.

Regards

Ian
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Reply #13 - Jul 20th, 2010 at 7:46pm  
Images added by forum admin from IanH-Powys
...

...
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« Last Edit: Jul 20th, 2010 at 9:43pm by Admin1 »  
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tortella
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Reply #14 - Jul 20th, 2010 at 7:47pm  
What provider are you with? Strange that you don't have access to your stats. I thought all users had access. If they can't do this for you, I would change provider to one who can.
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IanH-Powys
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Reply #15 - Jul 20th, 2010 at 11:04pm  
Thanks for posting that Eric.

what you can see is a chart generated by ping plotter. as recommended by a Senior Network engineer for US TV network i work with..

the red areas on the chart accurately represent our connection to the internet. RED no connection, Black line Connection.

My ISP based just on the other side of the border from wales, and currently promoting like mad in wales due to WAG funding for notspots. claimed that the 1st hop was to the Modem in my house... strange 1000ms for 10cm of cat5.

if any body has experience of such an intermittent service i would appreciate some advice.

I would point out that we are currently NOT being capped
and that some 20% of the time the service is stunning. and 60% of the time its OK its just currently Dire.

Ian
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Eric Johnston
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Reply #16 - Jul 21st, 2010 at 8:23am  
A 1000mS ping from your PC to your modem, via ethernet cable is definitely wrong.  Maybe some misunderstanding about IP address.

Do tracert 212.58.246.92 (to BBC London)
This will list out all the IP addresses of routers between your PC and London.  

The first IP listed will be your modem.
The next IP listed will the Skylogic Turin teleport
etc
The final IP listed will be BBC London.

Check each link section in turn.
Start with the link from your PC to the modem and put a ping running on this.  It should be  about 1mS every time, with no errors.  If there are problems suspect a ethernet connector fault.  The plastic ridges between the gold contacts should not be crushed at all and the springs inside the socket should all be visible.

Once your PC to modem connection is good then address the satellite link to the teleport.

Ping from your modem to the teleport IP address.  Don't go any further (e.g. all the way to London or USA) as this introduces many other possible sources of problems.   4.2.2.2 is in the USA.

Note that when initially powered on the modem has a default IP address and if your PC is using DHCP it should connect immediately. e.g. 192.168.x.x

Once the boot up and carrier acquisition sequence is complete the IP address of the modem changes to your normal operating IP address e.g. 10.96.x.x   When this happens your PC will lose connection and you must either reboot your PC, disconnect and reconnect the ethernet cable or do ipconfig /renew.

Looking at the reverse direction from UK to Turin, I see this tracert below when trying to reach a Skylogic network IP 95.210.109.100.

C:\Users\Eric>tracert 95.210.109.100
Tracing route to 95.210.109.100 over a maximum of 30 hops
 1     1 ms    <1 ms    <1 ms  192.168.0.1
 2    14 ms     8 ms     8 ms  10.12.56.1
 3     8 ms     9 ms     9 ms  chms-geam-1a-v11.network.virginmedia.net [62.31.224.129]
 4    11 ms    11 ms    11 ms  basl-core-1b-tenge72.network.virginmedia.net [62.30.243.73]
 5     9 ms    12 ms    10 ms  popl-bb-1b-ae4-0.network.virginmedia.net [195.182.178.113]
 6     9 ms     9 ms     9 ms  popl-bb-1a-ae0-0.network.virginmedia.net [213.105.174.229]
 7    18 ms    20 ms    17 ms  amst-ic-1-as0-0.network.virginmedia.net [213.105.175.6]
 8    17 ms    19 ms    54 ms  ams-001.interoute.net [195.69.144.81]
 9    70 ms    56 ms    39 ms  ae0-0.ams-koo-score-2-re0.interoute.net [84.233.190.2]
10    70 ms    42 ms    44 ms  ae3-0.fra-006-score-3-re0.interoute.net [84.233.190.50]
11    28 ms    29 ms    28 ms  ae4-0.fra-006-score-1-re0.interoute.net [212.23.42.165]
12    37 ms    37 ms    39 ms  ae1-0.mil-cal-score-1-re0.interoute.net [89.202.146.89]
13    53 ms    44 ms    45 ms  84.233.225.142
14    42 ms    54 ms    43 ms  88-202-127-81.ip.skylogicnet.com [88.202.127.81]
15    40 ms    41 ms    42 ms  ge-1-2.r03.trn.ip.skylogicnet.com [88.202.127.19]
16    41 ms    39 ms    55 ms  ge-0-1-0-0.r04.trn.ip.skylogicnet.com [88.202.127.27]
17    40 ms    42 ms    41 ms  88-202-126-254.ip.skylogicnet.com [88.202.126.254]
18     *        *        *     Request timed out.

Note the final four IP addresses of routers within Skylogic.  Try them from your end.

Best regards, Eric.
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Broadband-Algarve
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Reply #17 - Jul 21st, 2010 at 12:44pm  
Just to be clear, our customers have been reporting intermittent issues with speed and connection over the past few months or so.  Some have been more severe than others, and yours seems to be one of the more severe.

If you dish is aligned properly and you are not FAP'd (when an install initially happens most people FAP as it's a novelty, however saying this we have users who regularly go over their limits and are not significantly slowed down) then the issue is likely to be service or in other cases hardware.  We have only ever had one modem go down and that was doing some crazy things!

In any case there has been Tooway maintenance on Spot A of the Ku band system this weekend and from what we can see service is better and more stable now.  Fingers crossed this will keep up.

So:  First check your FAP, if you aren't over your limits then contact your service provider immediately.  The sooner they know there is a problem the sooner they can hopefully solve it.

Hope things improve for you soon.
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IanH-Powys
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Reply #18 - Jul 21st, 2010 at 1:45pm  
thanks again for useful information.

re ping

i have a netgear switch at 192.168.2.1 as first hop from laptop
then the next hop is to 10.96.64.1 on currently a 702ms hop

this must be at the uplink site....

the local modem will dchp at 192.168.100.1 during aquisition (1.5 hours) this morning and the event log makes interesting reading,

i have been on at my isp since November.....yes November and getting the run around...

finally i have had to agree to paying an engineer to come on friday...

well the Network engineer has just left giving my network and machines a clean bill of health  ...I intend to pass his bill to the ISP next...

ian
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Broadband-Algarve
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Reply #19 - Jul 21st, 2010 at 4:35pm  
Am I understanding this correctly?  One and a half hours for your Tooway modem to lock on?  So the RX and TX lights flashed for all this time with no lock?  That's crazy - it should take no more than 20 minutes after initial activation, 45 at most.

When we activate new modems they normally take around 30-40 mins to lock on before activation can be done.  Once the modem has been activated then acquiring and having the RX light illuminated permanently should be fairly quick.  Our modem here (southern Portugal) locks very quickly, few seconds, max 2 mins.

Are you sure this is not a modem problem after all?
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Reply #20 - Jul 21st, 2010 at 4:46pm  
Message to Broadband-Algarve:

How does the customer connect to the Tooway modem regarding IP addresses, mask etc. ?

Best regards, Eric.
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IanH-Powys
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Reply #21 - Jul 22nd, 2010 at 12:31am  
Thanks for all the interest.

Ok my home network is

On desktop running 24/7 email and skype and now ping plotter
Two laptops used as required

I used to have a Lynksys wrt54gl and a rvo42 but after isp said it could be my network at fault so I bought a belkinN+ wireless router.

Ok so my home network is now a router at 192.168.2.1 and devices at 2, 3 and 4

The home router receives an Ip from the Tooway box via dchp

During acquisition its 192.168.100.2 and if you access 192.168.100.1 you can read the event log of the Tooway modem.

Yes guys it does take 1,5 hours to log on….. I have attached a sample for you reading.

THU JAN 01 00:19:35 1970 RNG-RSP: 0 [ticks], 0 [Hz], 0.75 [dBm]
THU JAN 01 00:19:34 1970 RNG-RSP: 0 [ticks], 12421 [Hz], 0.00 [dBm]
THU JAN 01 00:19:09 1970 RNG-RSP: -1 [ticks], 25600 [Hz], 0.00 [dBm]
THU JAN 01 00:19:02 1970 RNG-RSP: 111887 [ticks], 0 [Hz], 0.00 [dBm]
THU JAN 01 00:18:57 1970 US Scan: 1015.329956 [MHz], Channel 10
THU JAN 01 00:18:53 1970 DS NAPA: Success
THU JAN 01 00:18:52 1970 DS Acquire: 1554.840942 [MHz], 25.00 [Msps], 10.00 [dB], MR
THU JAN 01 00:18:48 1970 DS Scan: 1554.840942 [MHz]
THU JAN 01 00:18:43 1970 DS Scan: 1554.750000 [MHz]
THU JAN 01 00:18:37 1970 DS Scan: 1240.000000 [MHz]
THU JAN 01 00:18:30 1970 DS Scan: 1230.000000 [MHz]
THU JAN 01 00:18:23 1970 DS Scan: 1220.000000 [MHz]
THU JAN 01 00:18:16 1970 DS Scan: 1210.000000 [MHz]
THU JAN 01 00:18:10 1970 DS Scan: 1200.000000 [MHz]
THU JAN 01 00:16:06 1970 RNG-RSP: 0 [ticks], 0 [Hz], 0.00 [dBm]
THU JAN 01 00:16:01 1970 RNG-RSP: 0 [ticks], -6584 [Hz], 0.00 [dBm]
THU JAN 01 00:15:51 1970 RNG-RSP: 111887 [ticks], 0 [Hz], 0.00 [dBm]
THU JAN 01 00:15:41 1970 US Scan: 1031.329956 [MHz], Channel 11
THU JAN 01 00:15:37 1970 DS NAPA: Success
THU JAN 01 00:15:36 1970 DS Acquire: 1554.840210 [MHz], 25.00 [Msps], 5.00 [dB], MR
THU JAN 01 00:15:32 1970 DS Scan: 1554.840210 [MHz]
THU JAN 01 00:15:27 1970 DS Scan: 1554.750000 [MHz]
THU JAN 01 00:15:21 1970 DS Scan: 1190.000000 [MHz]
THU JAN 01 00:15:14 1970 DS Scan: 1180.000000 [MHz]
THU JAN 01 00:15:07 1970 DS Scan: 1170.000000 [MHz]
THU JAN 01 00:15:00 1970 DS Scan: 1160.000000 [MHz]
THU JAN 01 00:14:54 1970 DS Scan: 1150.000000 [MHz]
THU JAN 01 00:12:47 1970 RNG-RSP: -1 [ticks], 0 [Hz], 0.00 [dBm]
THU JAN 01 00:12:41 1970 RNG-RSP: 1 [ticks], -25600 [Hz], 0.00 [dBm]
THU JAN 01 00:12:14 1970 RNG-RSP: 0 [ticks], -25600 [Hz], 0.00 [dBm]
THU JAN 01 00:12:01 1970 RNG-RSP: 111888 [ticks], 0 [Hz], 0.00 [dBm]
THU JAN 01 00:11:45 1970 US Scan: 1015.329956 [MHz], Channel 10
THU JAN 01 00:11:41 1970 DS NAPA: Success
THU JAN 01 00:11:40 1970 DS Acquire: 1554.839600 [MHz], 25.00 [Msps], 10.00 [dB], MR
THU JAN 01 00:11:35 1970 DS Scan: 1554.839600 [MHz]
THU JAN 01 00:11:31 1970 DS Scan: 1554.750000 [MHz]
THU JAN 01 00:11:25 1970 DS Scan: 1140.000000 [MHz]

Here I hope you will see a pattern

During all this process the downlink light flashs

You can see the down link is acquired rather quickly and then the modem sets about the uplink.

A two minute loop seems to happen and then if no success the whole process starts again.

I have 13 pages of this process logged….

Then when eventually (yes 1.5 hours) it connects the 192.168.100.1 IP goes away and the next IP available is….10.96.64.1 now this is supposed to be the tooway modem --- logical really

BUT if you ping it its 600+ms away…

Then we start the process as shown in the diagram earlier of having an on  off on off on off service changing every minuite…..its dire

But the Engineer is coming on Friday and if it takes 1.5 hours to log on he is in for a long day…..cause he aint leaving till I am happy…

Ian
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Broadband-Algarve
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Reply #22 - Jul 22nd, 2010 at 9:23pm  
So long as the router is a DSL router you should have no issues, but saying that I bought two Belkin N routers the other week and neither would work with Tooway even though I've used the lower specification for ages and both say suitable for Cable connections.  Ended up taking both back for a refund.

It looks like the modem is just scanning frequencies looking for a lock.  This shouldn't take 90 mins!  I and I think the rest of us will be interested in what your engineer has to say on Friday.

The only other time I have seem this is on our own modem, but this was back in Jan/Feb and turned out to be a faulty TX.  Well lets say changing the TX unit on the BUC resolved the problem and leave it at that....  I had my reservations as other 'things' were happening, like my router dropping the modem connection but the modem still be connected (at least RX steady).

Please keep us posted ....
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welshbarn
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Reply #23 - Jul 26th, 2010 at 4:09pm  
I have been a Tooway user in Wales for nearly two years. It has been a torturous process from start to finish. I'm nearly bald with tearing my hair out. In my opinion, on the rare days when it works then it is a good system but personally I have found that the rest of the time is unreliable, slow and flaky. I've had a stream of mis-information from my service provider and what I see as a terrible level of customer service. In addition to this, personally I find the rules, regulations and general c**p associated with the system impossible to work with. After two years of purgatory I am going to have to call it a day.
Sad because BOY did I try and get this to work. It could have been so good.
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Powys
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Reply #24 - Jul 28th, 2010 at 2:00pm  
Ian:

Did it get sorted out on Friday?

If you can ping beyond Turin, then the satellite link itself must be working fine at that moment.  The hop times beyond the router are not the problem.   Horrible, maybe, but it is the loss of the link which is the problem. 

Graphing the network activity does not seem to me to be useful at that point.  If the network works right up to the router, and the router is working and recognises the modem is present, and it works right through Turin when the link is established, as it seems to, then it has to be alignment, the modem, or a cable fault.

After 40 years in electronics, including time in Field Service, I view all cables, connectors, and power supplies with some suspicion whenever logic seems to fail (logic can't fail).

(And what's this WAG funding for not-spots? I've only heard of a future £2m fund.  News doesn't seem to travel far north from the Valleys. )

Welshbarn:

Sounds horrible.  If I hadn't already got this KA system, this thread would have put me completely off TooWay.  As it happens, I have only had a problem due to weather, either here or Turin (usually checked using dialup).

I have a self-installed second-hand Bentley-Walker supplied system.   I use a Pluscom wireless router, with usually two PC's connected.  This PC is about 20', two timber walls and a floor away.  The main problem is Windows XP deciding it has no link to the router now and then.  This appears to be an XP problem.

Since I've not had a problem with Tooway in my six months, and B-W has started keeping us informed about possible Turin problems, I have no complaints to make.  Except the cost/bandwidth, of course.  B-W seem very helpful and particularly polite.  I assumed the reseller would have no influence over the quality of service beyond the initial physical installation



John
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IanH-Powys
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Reply #25 - Aug 4th, 2010 at 11:12am  
Thanks for all the assistance.

well i had a Engineer call on friday as promised

and he didn't leave until he had changed the Tx and Rx head assembly. and surprise we had a service that worked just like i would expect.......But after 3 days of painless internet on the Monday the Modem required a hard reset.. followed by a further 6 days perfect service.. but now we seem to have returned to a cycle of good days and bad days. I will post some charts later if anybody is interested

All i can say is install ping plotter on your network and start recording system performance in real time. very enlightening.

One thing... it rapidly became obvious that I now knew more than the engineer about the Network and how the modem connected to the bird...

I note comments from Welsh Barn and can only believe we are using the same ISP (pm me we have much to discuss) our location is exposed and we have experienced wind, snow and rain and i believe our performance in weather events is certainly better than others seem to report.

But the one thing i have learnt is

DO NOT TAKE AS GOSPEL ANYTHING THE ISP SAY - ALSO IF THE UISP SAY THE NOC CAN SEE NO FAULT ASK QUESTIONS.

IF IN DOUBT PM ME FOR MORE INFO OR ASK HERE

IAN H

Available for system installs in south and mid wales lol
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europe-satellite.com
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Reply #26 - Aug 4th, 2010 at 2:07pm  
Quote:
Thanks for all the assistance.

well i had a Engineer call on friday as promised

and he didn't leave until he had changed the Tx and Rx head assembly. and surprise we had a service that worked just like i would expect.......But after 3 days of painless internet on the Monday the Modem required a hard reset.. followed by a further 6 days perfect service.. but now we seem to have returned to a cycle of good days and bad days. I will post some charts later if anybody is interested

All i can say is install ping plotter on your network and start recording system performance in real time. very enlightening.

One thing... it rapidly became obvious that I now knew more than the engineer about the Network and how the modem connected to the bird...

I note comments from Welsh Barn and can only believe we are using the same ISP (pm me we have much to discuss) our location is exposed and we have experienced wind, snow and rain and i believe our performance in weather events is certainly better than others seem to report.

But the one thing i have learnt is

DO NOT TAKE AS GOSPEL ANYTHING THE ISP SAY - ALSO IF THE UISP SAY THE NOC CAN SEE NO FAULT ASK QUESTIONS.

IF IN DOUBT PM ME FOR MORE INFO OR ASK HERE

IAN H

Available for system installs in south and mid wales lol


Hi Ian,

Above test shows only the response time between your computer, local and remote network equipment and final destination computer (server) somewhere in the world.

It does not show proper info about the performance of the satellite connection only (uplink and downlink), it is a combination of a lot of hubs.

It is interesting to know more about good and bad days. The bad days can be a result of passing traffic limits on the good days. If you pass a hour or daily limit on day 1 you can be back to normal at day 3, day 2 shows a bad performance in this case.

Frits Blomsma
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tortella
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Reply #27 - Aug 4th, 2010 at 2:57pm  
I think he mentioned in a previous post that he wasn't capped.
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IanH-Powys
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Reply #28 - Aug 4th, 2010 at 3:23pm  
Interesting comparison

yesterday Dry in wales --- Dire service

Today stormy , windy wet --- perfect service

as to capping -- yesterday we were away and only the ping machine was running

today everybody is in and using system.

drop me a pm and i will mail you the ping plotter charts for a real look.

ian

oh and i have been checking the turin webcams....
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Reply #29 - Aug 4th, 2010 at 3:36pm  
Quote:
I think he mentioned in a previous post that he wasn't capped.

I dont read anything about his traffic usage, would be interesting to see figures (facts). A ping test does not show helpful information in this case (see also previous post).

I like to see a usage report not a ping test.
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europe-satellite.com
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Reply #30 - Aug 4th, 2010 at 3:38pm  
Quote:
Interesting comparison

yesterday Dry in wales --- Dire service

Today stormy , windy wet --- perfect service

as to capping -- yesterday we were away and only the ping machine was running

today everybody is in and using system.

drop me a pm and i will mail you the ping plotter charts for a real look.

ian

oh and i have been checking the turin webcams....

Storm does not effect your system as long the dish does not move. Heavy rain can be the reason of rx/tx problems, this can be local in Wales (or any other destination) or at the HUB in Turin.

All complains we get about slow Tooway systems are always related to traffic usage (Mr. Lucey 'tortella' is a very good example of this. A very long history of complains and all related to passing usage limits)

I dont know your provider/agent but he/she must be able to provide you with proper info about your hourly/daily/weekly and monthly usage. It is better to use proper facts instead guessing. Relying and judging on a ping test only does not give you any good information and does not show any source of your problems.

If traffic info does not show any usage problems, contact your provider/agent and try to solve the problem together.
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IanH-Powys
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Reply #31 - Aug 4th, 2010 at 4:08pm  
what the charts show....is when i can use my broadband and when i can not...simples...

this i can directly relate to each second of the day...

and if i use the log of my WAP you can see when it loses its ip from the Modem...

there is a direct correlation between c**p ping and supply.

yes i try to engage,( spell chucker nearly corrected that to enrage- might be more apt) my isp in discussion on this.

but their response is we must raise a case with the NOC and the NOC reply no fault found.....8 Fking months... Fine so now we have a good service 80% of the time but there are still issues.

I am hoping to chart some other tooway users --- again a simple ping plot agains time to see if there is anything common in the charts of two locations on the same bird but with two isps..

So any volunteers please send a pm .. and hopefully we can enlighten a few...

ian
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europe-satellite.com
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Reply #32 - Aug 4th, 2010 at 4:50pm  
Quote:
what the charts show....is when i can use my broadband and when i can not...simples...

Your chart should show much more ! See a sample below.

...
Above usage info of a user who was complaining nearly every week, system "c**p" ....... you can clearly see why he was complaining! When a systems slows down or 'time out because of a high latence, long ping time' 99% of those cases are related to usage.

We have seen a lot of tests which are wrong and not related to a connection problem of a modem.
There is only ONE correct way to test a modem/internet connection (ping test), click here

Quote:
loses its ip from the Modem...

You did not mention this before, is you retour loosing connection or your computer ?

Quote:
there is a direct correlation between c**p ping and supply.

Correct but it does not shows if it is related to your satellite connection. We dont know your local situation (network setup) but there can be much more involved.

Do you have a Ku or Ka system ?
Can you send us your traffic usage info by email ?
Send us more info about your local network setup.
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« Last Edit: Aug 4th, 2010 at 6:12pm by N/A »  
 
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IanH-Powys
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Reply #33 - Aug 4th, 2010 at 4:55pm  
how does one acquire such a colorful chart?

we conducted a series of tests in blocks of three hour periods

laptop one (wired)
laptop two (wired)
desktop (wired)

and then re introduced the netgear router

and conducted the tests again

and the tested again with all machines on and using wireless

and the result ---- no difference --- system was just as c**p each way --- and during all this testing the NOC via ISP reported no fault.

And then i went out and hired a Network engineer locally(my tame tech is in US) who also came and spent hours testing network and machines and found no fault

ian
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europe-satellite.com
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Reply #34 - Aug 4th, 2010 at 4:59pm  
Quote:
how does one acquire such a colorful chart?

Ask your provider/agent, he should be able to produce info like this, maybe a different lay-out. It shows more info beside "when i can use my broadband and when i can not...simples"

Quote:
and the result ---- no difference --- system was just as c**p each way ---

OK I believe you but what was the problem in this case ? Speed, loosing connection etc. etc. "just c**p" is not very helpfull to any enigineer Smiley

There is only ONE correct way to test a modem/internet connection (ping test), click here

Speedtest ? www.speedtest.net
Status of the modem lights (RX) ?
Ku or Ka ?

I think you have to contact your provider again and solve it together, give them as much as info as possible, there can be many things wrong or the source of your problem.
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IanH-Powys
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Reply #35 - Aug 4th, 2010 at 5:39pm  
speedtest.net

shows a downlink of 7.1mbs

shows a uplink of  0.26mbs

and a latency of 630ms

hopefully eric will post the stats from the isp that show we are UNDER our 6gb allowance... though i might have to buy a top up shortly... if i keep posting on ere....

I have tried to mail eric a chart for the previous 48 hours that shows second by second the status of our link

its a 2mb file i might upload it to our website later f anybody is interested.

Image below (Tooway FAP bar chart) inserted by forum admin:
...
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europe-satellite.com
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Reply #36 - Aug 4th, 2010 at 5:40pm  
Quote:
speedtest.net

shows a downlink of 7.1mbs

shows a uplink of  0.26mbs

and a latency of 630ms

hopefully eric will post the stats from the isp that show we are UNDER our 6gb allowance... though i might have to buy a top up shortly... if i keep posting on ere....

I have tried to mail eric a chart for the previous 48 hours that shows second by second the status of our link

its a 2mb file i might upload it to our website later f anybody is interested.

Speed looks amazing good ! Your upload and download speed is very good and also the latency of the system !

The yellow bar shows you have been in FAP or just out of FAB, this is (99% sure) why your system slows down, long ping and finally time outs.

Only if the above graphics are yours (this is not clear to us after your remarks regarding the info you get from your provider), I think there is nothing wrong with your equipment or satellite system, you are just passing limits, thats all.

How FAP works, click here Again, you could be in a safe zone today (a good day) but you where in a bad zone (bad day) yesterday. So be careful with conclusions.

Before you spend any money and time, first make sure you get reliable information about your usage from your provider.

Status of the modem lights (RX) when problems ?
Ku or Ka ?
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« Last Edit: Aug 4th, 2010 at 9:38pm by N/A »  
 
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Powys
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Reply #37 - Aug 5th, 2010 at 9:04am  
I feel nervous posting anything now, being apparently the only satisfied user of Tooway (except for the cost), and self-installer at that.   Maybe it's that the alternative was a deteriorating dial-up, which could take up to 9 attempts before connecting.  Anyway, yere goes.

Loss of IP:
I find that if there has been rain-fade, or if the PC has been on standby, and certainly if the fade happened _whilst_ it was on standby, then I need to release the IP and refresh it.   The router still reckons it has one, but it is fibbing.  The alternative is rebooting the PC, wich is a niusance, but faster than rebooting the modem. 

A small niusance, but it takes just a moment.  My router has a web interface, so there is no need to use the command line ipconfig tool.  If I refresh IP during rain-fade, the router will try, and then give me it's own local IP as the WAN, not useful, and needs to be watched out for.  This could be peculiar to my brand of wireless router, a Pluscom (high signal power, works well).

Alternatively, Windows XP has a right-click 'repair' function available in the settings/network connections/Local Area connection<whatever>, which I find handy because XP loses the WLAN now and then (known problem).  Again, the actual IP has to be checked that it is Skylogic rather than the router's own IP if the link is down.

FAP:
B-W (them again) provides a link to view the current usage stats, as illustrated in replies above.  I find that is a little delayed, but comparing it with figures from BitMeter, accurate.  Hit the limit, you slow down.  Keep going, and you _really_ slow down.  Dial-up would be faster.

Transfer rate:
Not bothered, it's fast enough for me.  Like cable, the headline figure is a burst rate, not sustained.  I have seen over 3Mb/s for, ooh, seconds at a time.  I bought an extra 500MB for some very large downloads.  This was not FAPped, and downloads were smooth and untroubled, though not at 3.6 Mb/s.  As in other threads in this forum, the FAP seems to be the thing that causes a lot of the apparently odd behaviour.

I use an accelerator proxy, which preserves bandwidth enormously.  The penalty is another dozen hops in the path.  This adds to the latency, but doesn't actually make browsing much slower overall.  Only works with text and images, though.  The images are degraded slightly, to a selected level.  So Frits' huge snapshots are not so expensive to view. 

Weather:
We have been having heavy showers.  It gets iffy.  'Normal' rain does not seem to cause any problem, even with a build-up of droplets on the horn cover.  A very fine, vertical, heavy drizzle causes fade as much as the almighty downpour does.  An almighty-downpour cloud, not visibly dropping anything, can also give problems.  Falling snow has not been a problem itself, only the build-up on the feed horn.

I post this because the impression which is being created is that there is something fundamentally wrong with the service, which is not my experience.  YMMV, as is often said.

John
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europe-satellite.com
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Reply #38 - Aug 5th, 2010 at 10:41am  
Quote:
I feel nervous posting anything now, being apparently the only satisfied user of Tooway (except for the cost), and self-installer at that.   Maybe it's that the alternative was a deteriorating dial-up, which could take up to 9 attempts before connecting.  Anyway, yere goes.

Loss of IP:
I find that if there has been rain-fade, or if the PC has been on standby, and certainly if the fade happened _whilst_ it was on standby, then I need to release the IP and refresh it.   The router still reckons it has one, but it is fibbing.  The alternative is rebooting the PC, wich is a niusance, but faster than rebooting the modem.  

A small niusance, but it takes just a moment.  My router has a web interface, so there is no need to use the command line ipconfig tool.  If I refresh IP during rain-fade, the router will try, and then give me it's own local IP as the WAN, not useful, and needs to be watched out for.  This could be peculiar to my brand of wireless router, a Pluscom (high signal power, works well).

Alternatively, Windows XP has a right-click 'repair' function available in the settings/network connections/Local Area connection<whatever>, which I find handy because XP loses the WLAN now and then (known problem).  Again, the actual IP has to be checked that it is Skylogic rather than the router's own IP if the link is down.

FAP:
B-W (them again) provides a link to view the current usage stats, as illustrated in replies above.  I find that is a little delayed, but comparing it with figures from BitMeter, accurate.  Hit the limit, you slow down.  Keep going, and you _really_ slow down.  Dial-up would be faster.

Transfer rate:
Not bothered, it's fast enough for me.  Like cable, the headline figure is a burst rate, not sustained.  I have seen over 3Mb/s for, ooh, seconds at a time.  I bought an extra 500MB for some very large downloads.  This was not FAPped, and downloads were smooth and untroubled, though not at 3.6 Mb/s.  As in other threads in this forum, the FAP seems to be the thing that causes a lot of the apparently odd behaviour.

I use an accelerator proxy, which preserves bandwidth enormously.  The penalty is another dozen hops in the path.  This adds to the latency, but doesn't actually make browsing much slower overall.  Only works with text and images, though.  The images are degraded slightly, to a selected level.  So Frits' huge snapshots are not so expensive to view.  

Weather:
We have been having heavy showers.  It gets iffy.  'Normal' rain does not seem to cause any problem, even with a build-up of droplets on the horn cover.  A very fine, vertical, heavy drizzle causes fade as much as the almighty downpour does.  An almighty-downpour cloud, not visibly dropping anything, can also give problems.  Falling snow has not been a problem itself, only the build-up on the feed horn.

I post this because the impression which is being created is that there is something fundamentally wrong with the service, which is not my experience.  YMMV, as is often said.

John

Hi John,

Dont get nervous, you are NOT the only satisfied user Smiley We have hundreds of happy Tooway users. Ku and Ka network is working fine. There was a major upgrade and maintenance 2 weeks ago on the Ku network, this solved a long time (+- since March 2010) ongoing problem for a very small group of users.

The last time we spoke to a Ka client about an issue was months ago !

Problems mentioned on this board are exceptions, especial those long ongoing ones. They can be solved only in good communication with a provider.

Beside usage problems, local network problems, wrong computer settings and/or weather related problems we hardly have any other, and if we have, they are always solved.

A large part of our Tooway clients are very basic home users, they live in a very remote parts, they dont have a telephone line but also no mobile coverage (zero communication), beside this most of them have also no basic computer knowledge (very understandable). Those facts all together makes it nearly impossible to give a proper support or solve a problem.
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tortella
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Reply #39 - Aug 5th, 2010 at 12:01pm  
Very well said John and well balanced. But I guess the nature of a forum is people post when they have problems and not when they are happy with the service. Its nice to hear that things are working out for you and you made your points very well.

I find that if people post on a forum their problems it is mostly because they are exasperated by their provider in resolving their issues and are turning to others for help. It is not always a reflection of Tooway performance but more out of desperation for help and advice that their service provider should be providing for them. Please tell the forum if you have a good or bad service provider so future and present Tooway users can avail from your recommendation.
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europe-satellite.com
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Reply #40 - Aug 5th, 2010 at 1:09pm  
Quote:
Very well said John and well balanced. But I guess the nature of a forum is people post when they have problems and not when they are happy with the service.

Mr. Lucey,

It looks a little bit Mr. Lucey is not so happey with positive posting from satisfied and happy Tooway users......... correct me if I am wrong !

We dont see any reason why happy and satisfied users should not post there experiance.

When users have a problem or a bad experiance it is always good to inform other (potentional) users, we all can learn from this. But it is also good to read about users who have a good experiance, this can help to get a better overall picture of a product, a service in general and a provider/installer.

Quote:
Please tell the forum if you have a good or bad service provider so future and present Tooway users can avail from your recommendation.

I think in those cases (bad experiance) users should post also with a real name and contact info and not behind a fake name (e.g. tortella). It is so easy to attack and comment about everybody and everything and stay unknown. In some of those cases (bad experiance) the postings are also not very well documentated and sometimes even very rude.

Frits Blomsma
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Broadband-Algarve
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Reply #41 - Aug 6th, 2010 at 11:57am  
There are many satisfied customers of Tooway, us being one of them as we live/work off grid, have no phone line at all, mobiles only and the mobile dongle are s**t.  To make a phone call we even have to go outside.  Great in the summer to top up your tan but not so good in the winter when its pelting down with rain Smiley

In the testing of your system did you obtain the RX and TX signal graphs from your provider.  This will show you exactly what your modem is doing and if the levels are within prescribed limits.

We have several customers who for financial reasons stay on the Basic package but as is normal regularly FAP.  However their connection normally just slows down, the system does not physically throw them off as you are experiencing.  One lady we have was on 120% of her monthly allowance and 81% of her weekly and still online but working very slowly.  This is because your usage is logged on a 4 weekly sliding scale not that you have an allowance and you can use it all in 1 day for example - although I'm probably teaching you to suck eggs here - I apologise if I am.

Anyway I would not just get your usage stats but also get the RX and TX graphs from your provider.  This will show you if either are dropping out for some reason and could indicate a hardware issue.  I feel quite positive that its not your router or laptops.

There has been quite some issues on Ku band over the past few months, and more recently our modem was going on and off like a yo-yo.  However yesterday and today things look stable and I have my usual two laptops running (one with a VPN) with no issues at all.

I really hope you manage to get things sorted soon.

Stephanie
Broadband Algarve.
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europe-satellite.com
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Reply #42 - Aug 6th, 2010 at 12:46pm  
Quote:
In the testing of your system did you obtain the RX and TX signal graphs from your provider.

Below a screenprint when you activate a system, it shows clearly the upstream (TX Transmit) and downstream (RX Receive) signals. Always ask for a copy when your system is installed or print it when you install yourself for later reference.

...

After activation you can always ask your agent/provider to send you up-to-date signal information, see below.

...

And finally below a usage report, ask you agent/provider for it or look at your usage info online if your agent/provider offer this service. (e.g. click here )

...

In above graphics it is clear user is passing his limts. As long you stay in Yellow/Green you are in the safe zone.

How FAP works, click here Again, you could be in a safe zone today (a good day) but you where in a bad zone (bad day) yesterday. So be careful with conclusions.
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