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Query: ADSL v Satellite : Speed  : Latency

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large
Ex Member


Dec 11th, 2012 at 6:34pm  
Hi all

I have an adsl connection that's at best 2mb. I am looking for a faster solution for my growing Internet requirements. Fibre is not available to me and I'm a long way from my exchange so I'm looking at other solutions to get more speed.

I have spoken with tooway direct and they kindly recorded a browsing session for me on their demo 12mb down/4mb up system they had available. Having viewed the footage I'm very concerned about the latency. It looked like it was a good 5 seconds between clicking and the page starting to download.

I'm looking at the 18mb down/6mb up package and would love to hear from any users out there about there experiences.

Any info would be appreciated

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« Last Edit: Dec 30th, 2012 at 4:30pm by Admin1 »  
 
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bigdishsat
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Reply #1 - Dec 14th, 2012 at 9:02pm  
There is always a bit of delay on satellite internet ... unfortunately, nothing can be done about the distance to the satellite and the speed of light.

If I put in bbc.co.uk into my browser, the page starts to load in a few seconds and finishes in about 10. Other websites will vary.

I use Tooway 18 for my business but I'm also a provider for Tooway Direct in France  and that means all the equipment is supplied from here ... trust me,  it works!
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« Last Edit: Dec 30th, 2012 at 4:27pm by Admin1 »  
 
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pladecalvo
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Reply #2 - Dec 28th, 2012 at 6:41pm  
The latency has been a problem for me since day one, with some sites taking up to 30-40 seconds before fully loading. I just timed www.bbc.co.uk and it took 8 seconds from pressing the 'enter' key before any text appeared, 16 seconds before the first picture appeared and 21 seconds before it was fully loaded.

The best you can say for it is that it is stable and you can rest assured that there will be a connection when you need it but don't expect a fast load because you won't get it.

I recently left Tooway because I was fed up with the slow page load and tried a company offering WI-FI connection. It was staggeringly fast. It would load a page in two or three seconds that was taking 30 seconds with Tooway. Unfortunately, the service was unreliable and it would be a lottery as to whether there was a connection when I wanted one....so I had to go back to Tooway. I'm on Tooway 8

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« Last Edit: Dec 30th, 2012 at 4:28pm by Admin1 »  
 
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europe-satellite.com
Ex Member


Reply #3 - Dec 30th, 2012 at 11:20am  
Signal latency.

For geostationary satellites, there is no way to eliminate latency.


Source, Wikipedia, for more info click here.

Latency is the delay between requesting data and the receipt of a response, or in the case of one-way communication, between the actual moment of a signal's broadcast and the time it is received at its destination.

Geostationary unsuitable for low-latency applications.

A (or geostationary Earth orbit/GEO) is a geosynchronous orbit directly above the Earth's equator (0° latitude), with a period equal to the Earth's rotational period and an orbital eccentricity of approximately zero. An object in a geostationary orbit appears motionless, at a fixed position in the sky, to ground observers. Communications satellites and weather satellites are often given geostationary orbits, so that the satellite antennas that communicate with them do not have to move to track them, but can be pointed permanently at the position in the sky where they stay. Due to the constant 0° latitude and circularity of geostationary orbits, satellites in GEO differ in location by longitude only.

Compared to ground-based communication, all geostationary satellite communications experience high latency due to the signal having to travel (2x) 35,786 km (22,236 mi) to a satellite in geostationary orbit and back to Earth again. Even at the speed of light (about 300,000 km/s or 186,000 miles per second), this delay can be significant. If all other signalling delays could be eliminated, it still takes a radio signal about 250 milliseconds (ms), or about a quarter of a second, to travel to the satellite and back to the ground. The absolute minimum total amount of delay is variable, due to the satellite staying in one place in the sky, while ground based users can be directly below with a roundtrip latency of 239.6 ms, or far to the side of the planet near the horizon with a roundtrip latency of 279.0 ms.

For an internet packet, that delay is doubled before a reply is received. That is the theoretical minimum. Factoring in other normal delays from network sources gives a typical one-way connection latency of 500–700 ms from the user to the ISP,or about 1,000–1,400 ms latency for the total round-trip time (RTT) back to the user. This is much more than most dial-up users experience at typically 150–200 ms total latency, and two orders of magnitude higher than the typical 15-40 ms latency experienced by users of other high-speed internet services, such as cable or VDSL.

For geostationary satellites, there is no way to eliminate latency, but the problem can be somewhat mitigated in Internet communications with TCP acceleration features that shorten the round trip time (RTT) per packet by splitting the feedback loop between the sender and the receiver. Such acceleration features are usually present in recent technology developments embedded in new satellite Internet services.

...
Satellite latency (Avanti Hylas-1).

...
ADSL latency (British Telecom).
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« Last Edit: Jan 2nd, 2013 at 9:40am by N/A »  
 
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qexceeded
Ex Member


Reply #4 - Jan 29th, 2013 at 6:23pm  
Quote:
Hi all
[..]
I'm looking at the 18mb down/6mb up package and would love to hear from any users out there about there experiences.

Any info would be appreciated



Speed isn't an issue, the Tooway system is really pretty fast, the physical latency isn't a big deal unless you want to play online games. The only real problem are the ridiculous low download allowance (monthly quota), see my report:

http://www.satsig.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1359449276

To me it seems tooway is only a real option if you have zero other choices to get halfway decent or at all Internet connection. So no phone line, simply nothing, then it is your last and only resort. (Of course Tooway knows this and can afford to sell their service with those (2013) more or less joke Download quotas.

I'd be very lucky to exchange the Tooway connection with a 2 Mb connection which is not metered (no Download limit) anytime, what does the good Tooway speed help, with those ridiculous download limits?

Right, not really much, if you want/need to use the Internet, meaning watching one or another video, especially in HD, which will consume your Quota in no time! ;-(
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Reply #5 - Jan 30th, 2013 at 11:15am  
In order to get the price per customer down, the Tooway system involves a finite amount of satellite bit rate capacity shared amongst all customer sites in each spot beam.

All sites, with the same technical equipment, have the same uplink and down link bit rate capability.  

But, because customers differ in their requirements and how much they can afford, a fair access policy (FAP) is used to try and match tariff paid and useage.  Limits on maximum bit rate per second and Mbytes downloaded per time period form a fair access policy.

Over the next 14 years the satellite will fill up and, while it may be feasible now to give customers much larger Mbyte allowances, these would have to be reduced in the future to keep congestion under control.

A number of FAP systems have been tried and adapted to try to satisfy the majority of customers. Daily allowances, monthly allowances, FAP free after midnight etc - all been tried. The challenge is to find a compromise between these two extremes:
FAP OFF: free-for-all all of the time = complaints about congestion during peak traffic times.
FAP ON: with traffic limits per second, hour, 4 hrs, day, 4 days, week, month = complaints about Mbyte limits.

My preference would be daily limit from 7am till 11pm. Free-for-all from 11pm till 7am.

It is inevitable that a very few customers will not be happy if their expectations exceed what the system can provide for the price they can afford.

Ask your service provider about tariffs for much larger monthly download amounts. Avanti/HYLAS is an alternative to Tooway. You could ask about that as well, if you are in one of the Avanti/HYLAS spot beams.
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« Last Edit: Feb 1st, 2013 at 7:57am by Admin1 »  
 
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qexceeded
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Reply #6 - Jan 30th, 2013 at 2:31pm  
Indeed, a nightly lower count, or nothing would be great! Since as home user I can schedule large downloads/etc. easily. But even the 50% count (nightly was) canceled by Tooway some times ago.

At least I was told upon asking the hotline, so no matter when you download, your low download allowance will be used 100%

On a quick view, it seems the Avanti/HYLAS system is even more expensive then Tooway?

http://www.wafa.ae/en/vsat/products/idirect/idirect-ka-band-satellite-internet-s...

So my guess, Tooway is exploiting users who have no other choice then using Sat-Internet, with their ridiculous data allowance, seems not so wrong?

Of course, none clear in his mind who could get a decent ADSL coverage for 20-30 €/month or so, with no download/whatever limit would accept ridiculous limits such as Tooway enforces, for the sole reason that sad users have no other choice! ;-(

So my conclusion and hope, 4g /(LTE) will hopefully at least force Tooway and others to offer much more for the money, seems to hit the nail right on the head!

Sorry, no pun indented, it is just what we are observing, using Tooway, while anything else works pretty smooth!

Just for the record, (hardware/install/etc. excluded) I pay for the Tooway 12 package per Month/GB:

45.95€ / 16GB
2.87 €/GB//month (showing that the 9,99 €/GB volume booster is just another nearly 4 times rip-off!)

Now an ADSL package with zero limit and phone included (mostly fixed Europe wide included), using say 300 GB/month, there is no limit means:

35.95/300
0.11 €/GB/month

Let aside the fee phone included, just the Internet:

Meaning Tooway is 25.5 times more expensive/GB in addition to being stuck with those joke 16GB! Really a complete rip-off, but one can't do anything about it, if you have no other choice and this is very much exploited by Tooway, I fear! ;-(
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davidbentleywalker
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Reply #7 - Jan 30th, 2013 at 3:11pm  
Qexceeded you obviously have no idea about the true cost of running a satellite service.  I would go into detail to provide further explanation but it would not be worth it

In short, the speed and data you get is incredibly high in relation to its true cost.

(The Hylas 2 service you linked from WAFA's website is for KA-Band across the Middle East and North Africa) You would be looking for the Hylas 1 service for Europe
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europe-satellite.com
Ex Member


Reply #8 - Jan 30th, 2013 at 11:02pm  
Quote:
 I would go into detail to provide further explanation but it would not be worth it

Good point, waste of time ! Smiley

A private jet cost $1550,00 per hour, a car £53,00 per day ..............

Quote Qexceeded: Really a complete rip-off, but one can't do anything about it, if you have no other choice and this is very much exploited by .........

* several links from this posting were removed by forum admin 5 Aug 2014 *
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« Last Edit: Aug 5th, 2014 at 4:15pm by Admin1 »  
 
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qexceeded
Ex Member


Reply #9 - Jan 31st, 2013 at 6:36pm  
Quote:
Qexceeded you obviously have no idea about the true cost of running a satellite service.  I would go into detail to provide further explanation but it would not be worth it

In short, the speed and data you get is incredibly high in relation to its true cost. 


So you mean someone at/behind Tooway is paying for my and others service in addition to what users pay, as it is so expensive? Sounds great!

But not really believable, if they could afford as someone mentioned shortly to double the data allowance I guess they were making money before and after doing this.

Again the Tooway system runs pretty good, (if anything is working), no doubt, but the monthly data allowance is simply far to low, at least on the above Hylas page they warn about youtube/friends. But this is what people tend to use heavily these days online!

So they should be aware that they have to heavily reduce their youtube & friends usage, while using Tooway or other sat based ISP. That is all I wanted to say, no reason to call me an idiot.

Quote:
(The Hylas 2 service you linked from WAFA's website is for KA-Band across the Middle East and North Africa) You would be looking for the Hylas 1 service for Europe


OK, I looked over http://www.europe-satellite.com/ but was incapable to easily find any pricing info, for Hylas I service? Perhaps I am to dump or they are trying to hide those informations from potential customers, anyway not really intelligent...;-(
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europe-satellite.com
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Reply #10 - Jan 31st, 2013 at 6:44pm  
Quote:
I am to dump or they are trying to hide those informations from potential customers, anyway not really intelligent...;-(

*********************************************
Dear Sir, Madam,

First of all we would like to thank you for your interest in our company, products and service. To answer your request(s) as fast and efficiently as possible please click on one of the buttons below.
*********************************************

If you had clicked the "contact" or "Pricelist request" button on our site it would be clear, it's not really difficult (we hope) ! We always reply within 24 hours.

...

We are happy to send you a  price list, please click on the following link, but this is not a cheap option Sad
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« Last Edit: Aug 5th, 2014 at 4:25pm by Admin1 »  
 
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europe-satellite.com
Ex Member


Reply #11 - Jan 31st, 2013 at 7:16pm  
Quote:
Indeed, a nightly lower count, or nothing would be great! Since as home user I can schedule large downloads/etc. easily. But even the 50% count (nightly was) cancelled by Tooway some times ago.

45.95€ / 16GB
2.87 €/GB//month (showing that the 9,99 €/GB volume booster is just another nearly 4 times rip-off!)

Now an ADSL package with zero limit and phone included (mostly fixed Europe wide included), using say 300 GB/month, there is no limit means:

35.95/300
0.11 €/GB/month

We really don't understand your remarks regarding prices, I found the following info today.

...

---> Make sure you read also the small prints !

From February 2013, all new packages (with the exception of our low user 2Mbps package) will have a flat rate, up to 20Mbps download and 6mbps upload speed. The Tooway M, L and XL packages will have monthly data allowances of 10GB, 20GB and 30GB respectively. In addition, Tooway L and XL will have a brand new UNLIMITED night-time allowance. The Tooway ABSOLUTE package will have unlimited data day and night.

All packages are subject to a fair use or fair access policy (“FAP”) and all speeds quoted (download and upload) are “up to” speeds although you should expect to see performance at or close to the “headline” speeds if you are not restricted in any manner

The FAP has been designed to be as open and flexible as possible, while ensuring fair use for all users. Unlike other services, where you are charged for additional data used above your monthly limit, Avonline's service is based upon fixed data ("flat rate") allowance each month (plus night-time allowance where relevant). It's like pay as you go ("PAYG") mobile – once you've used up your (daily) allowance for the month, your system effectively stops (ie. runs at a maximum speed of 128Kbps) until the next months allowance is due to be credited to your account.
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« Last Edit: Aug 5th, 2014 at 4:11pm by Admin1 »  
 
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qexceeded
Ex Member


Reply #12 - Jan 31st, 2013 at 7:53pm  
Quote:
*********************************************
Dear Sir, Madam,

First of all we would like to thank you for your interest in our company, products and service. To answer your request(s) as fast and efficiently as possible please click on one of the buttons below.
*********************************************

If you had clicked the "contact" or "Pricelist request" button on our site it would be clear, it's not really difficult (we hope) ! We always reply within 24 hours.

http://www.europe-satellite.com/projects/contact_page.jpg

We are happy to send you a  price list, please click on the following link, but this is not a cheap option Sad

http://www.europe-satellite.com/EMS/wpimages/wp7339a789_05_06.jpg click here.


I really do not want to share all the below info, just to get a simple price list:

Listen to audio CAPTCHA
Name
Surname
Company
Address
Town
Country
Message
Postal code
Country
Phone number
Mobile number
Email address

This is more then ridiculous and I really do not want any business with a company like this. If I enter a shop in some street/town, am I asked for all this information just for asking something?
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qexceeded
Ex Member


Reply #13 - Jan 31st, 2013 at 8:08pm  
Quote:
We really don't understand your remarks regarding prices, I found the following info today.

http://www.europe-satellite.com/projects/avonline_tooway_01-02-2013.jpg

---> Make sure you read also the small prints !

From February 2013, all new packages (with the exception of our low user 2Mbps package) will have a flat rate, up to 20Mbps download and 6mbps upload speed. The Tooway M, L and XL packages will have monthly data allowances of 10GB, 20GB and 30GB respectively. In addition, Tooway L and XL will have a brand new UNLIMITED night-time allowance. The Tooway ABSOLUTE package will have unlimited data day and night.

All packages are subject to a fair use or fair access policy (“FAP”) and all speeds quoted (download and upload) are “up to” speeds although you should expect to see performance at or close to the “headline” speeds if you are not restricted in any manner

The FAP has been designed to be as open and flexible as possible, while ensuring fair use for all users. Unlike other services, where you are charged for additional data used above your monthly limit, Avonline's service is based upon fixed data ("flat rate") allowance each month (plus night-time allowance where relevant). It's like pay as you go ("PAYG") mobile – once you've used up your (daily) allowance for the month, your system effectively stops (ie. runs at a maximum speed of 128Kbps) until the next months allowance is due to be credited to your account.

Sounds good, if true? Although why was I told by toowaydirect support that the nightly half data count was canceled, when avonline even offer zero data count nightly?

So how come avonline using Tooway can deliver much better packages then Tooway(direct) itself? I still don't get it, perhaps I have been ripped off or this avonline is a scam?
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europe-satellite.com
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Reply #14 - Jan 31st, 2013 at 8:20pm  
Quote:
So how come avonline using Tooway can deliver much better packages then Tooway(direct) itself? I still don't get it, perhaps I have been ripped off or this avonline is a scam?

I advise you to contact Avonline.

Quote:
I really do not want to share all the below info, just to get a simple price list:

Listen to audio CAPTCHA
Name
Surname
Company
Address
Town
Country
Message
Postal code
Country
Phone number
Mobile number
Email address

This is more then ridiculous and I really do not want any business with a company like this. If I enter a shop in some street/town, am I asked for all this information just for asking something?

It's not ridiculous because we sell many different products and services in/for different markets/users and we always try to select the best product/service for our customers. Beside above, most of our clients are NOT next door (our shop is never next door).

Quote:
Sounds good, if true? Although why was I told by toowaydirect support that the nightly half data count was canceled, when avonline even offer zero data count nightly?

So how come avonline using Tooway can deliver much better packages then Tooway(direct) itself? I still don't get it, perhaps I have been ripped off or this avonline is a scam?

You really have to read all info especially the small print (it can save you $$$), From February 2013, all new packages ............... blah blah blah.

ToowayDirect, Avonline, Bentley Walker and many, many others are all Tooway agents (resellers) with different prices and conditions. Tooway is a product from Eutelsat/Skylogic.

Contact Avonline, they are the only ones who can answer your questions/remarks.

Good luck !

...

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« Last Edit: Aug 5th, 2014 at 4:09pm by Admin1 »  
 
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bigdishsat
Ex Member


Reply #15 - Jan 31st, 2013 at 9:52pm  
Quote:

So how come avonline using Tooway can deliver much better packages then Tooway(direct) itself? I still don't get it, perhaps I have been ripped off or this avonline is a scam?


Michael ... calm down, 'ripped off' and 'scam' is not acceptable language and you will just alienate people who otherwise would be pleased to help you. The new Tooway packages that you see on the Avonline website were only announced at 9am today. Other service providers will update their websites in due course ...
http://www.toowaydirect.com/2013/01/tooway-services-climb-to-20-mb/
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qexceeded
Ex Member


Reply #16 - Feb 1st, 2013 at 8:32am  
Quote:
Michael ... calm down, 'ripped off' and 'scam' is not acceptable language and you will just alienate people who otherwise would be pleased to help you. The new Tooway packages that you see on the Avonline website were only announced at 9am today. Other service providers will update their websites in due course ...
http://www.toowaydirect.com/2013/01/tooway-services-climb-to-20-mb/


That sounds good, none said to me that the avoline offer is brand new? So I was of course a bit shocked and likely exaggerated, though this was of course no personal insult against anyone on the forum, sorry if someone felt like this! ;-(

However it says brand new Tooway customers get those 20 MB (speed) and nightly free download (The later being very important)? Also one needs to know the time zone (GMT ?) of this 23:00 to 07:00 time frame for sure.

"The Tooway L and XL offer subscribers unlimited data at night (11.00 pm to 7.00 am local time) helping users carry out large file downloads like HD video, movies or big software upgrades at times when it won’t affect their overall monthly data allowance"

It seems Tooway12 corresponds to to Tooway L? The question is now if/how can people who ware already customer profit from these new very welcome data allowances? Or will they be automatically shifted?

What if you have used your monthly data allowance, does it mean one could still do nightly downloads with full speed and just be limited at daytime? Or does it mean this works only nightly if you are still in your data allowance?

Best regards
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bigdishsat
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Reply #17 - Feb 1st, 2013 at 5:47pm  
Quote:

Also one needs to know the time zone (GMT ?) of this 23:00 to 07:00 time frame for sure.

Or will they be automatically shifted?

What if you have used your monthly data allowance, does it mean one could still do nightly downloads with full speed and just be limited at daytime? 



Michael, I believe it's country specific, so 23.00 to 07.00 French time as you're based in France.

You can migrate to the new packages, it's not automatic though.

If you exceed your daytime quota, your night usage is not affected.

I only received the new package details this morning at 9am and my site is being changed over the weekend. Just contact me in the usual way if you want to change package
Smiley
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qexceeded
Ex Member


Reply #18 - Feb 1st, 2013 at 8:15pm  
Thx for the offer!

I have somehow a hard time to distinguish in this Tooway service, who is providing/doing what? It seems now Toowaydirect, however this is affiliated to Tooway/etc., is already upgrading our account, I asked a few questions about the new service. Hopefully this is OK?

Thx also for the additional PDF that was sent to me with additional information, from someone on this forum. As said, I have still some problems with all those different company/etc.?

But the new offer seems really a step forward, especially the 23:00 to 07:00 window that isn't counted from your data allowance, is a big help, to stay in the 16 now 20 GB frame, since you can simply delay anything big as CD/DVD and alike downloads, and videos, youtube & friends to nightly times. I have never ever really cared about those download amount, since there was never any restriction on our ADSL accounts, in France, Germany as well as Switzerland.

But this will help us tremendously, even if it means a little delay to check/watch one or another thing. The "complete" unrestricted package also sounds great, but the price is unluckily somehow above our budget for Internet.

Especially if you run Linux this is very easy to schedule, for casual downloads you can simply start up "wget" from an at (at time) command or even cron. For youtube and alike, there are various shell, Perl, PHP scripts available. I will test one or another and see which one meets my needs.

Of course we are just about to run out of FAP this month, as usual...;-(

BTW
I could not reach bigdishsat for some time, all mail came back with the mention that no MX* record for the domain would exist.

*Means Mailexchanger, so no mail server was known in the DNS to tell where those mails should be send at all?
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bigdishsat
Ex Member


Reply #19 - Feb 1st, 2013 at 9:03pm  
Quote:
Thx for the offer!


BTW
I could not reach bigdishsat for some time, all mail came back with the mention that no MX* record for the domain would exist.

*Means Mailexchanger, so no mail server was known in the DNS to tell where those mails should be send at all?


That can only mean that you're using the wrong email address or that you're connecting to the wrong website address or you're trying to ring the wrong telephone number.

All of these seemed to have worked when you needed a replacement Tria last year and a replacement was then sent out to you. Nothing has changed ... very strange.

I've tried to help you, but I don't have that amount of spare time so I can only suggest that you contact one of the other suppliers that have privately touted for your business


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europe-satellite.com
Ex Member


Reply #20 - Feb 1st, 2013 at 9:29pm  
Quote:
I have somehow a hard time to distinguish in this Tooway service, who is providing/doing what?

Dear Michael,

Time to start READING but lets keep it simple (again).

1) Tooway is a product from Eutelsat/Skylogic.
2) Tooway is sold by many agents.
3) Bandwidth is controlled and provided by Skylogic (Italy) and nobody can change this or offer a different service on Tooway.

1) Citroen is made by Citroen.
2) Citroen is sold by many dealers.
3) The car is made by Citoeen and nobody can change the model.

I hope above is clear, you can find all info if ......... you have bandwidth left.

Next.

Quote:
Of course we are just about to run out of FAP this month, as usual...;-(

That's a bit strange on the "first day" of the month, maybe time to move to a location with a proper land line or get rid of virus or programs running in the background (consuming your bandwidth) without knowing this.

Next.

Quote:
I could not reach bigdishsat for some time, all mail came back with the mention that no MX* record for the domain would exist.

This can be a problem at his provider or the Telco. But I don't believe your remark. Bigsat is in business already for years and not one of those ex-pat cowboys !

1) Like Bentley Walker said :  I would go into detail to provide further explanation but it would not be worth it.

2) Bigsat : I can only suggest that you contact one of the other suppliers that have privately touted for your business

3) El Molino Systems S.L. : End of the discussion.

Do yourself a favour, get your act together and please ....... stop moaning Smiley:)

Maybe Eric want a last word before he may close/delete this subject, I am on the edge to do it.
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Reply #21 - Feb 1st, 2013 at 10:11pm  
End of the story.
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