Dish, LNB, DVR/STB, Signal Mtr, Compass etc

I am new to this Forum, and also to Satellites.

I would appreciate if someone could educate me on the foll basic queries :

I am currently using the ordinary Cable TV provided by the local TV Provider, and an old Flat Panel Panasonic TV.
I am intending to buy a Full HD 3D 40 Thin LED-Backlit LCD TV.

1) On Self-Installation for Free FTA Channels :
Initially, before subscribing to any D2H Provider, I would like to first experiment with the Free FTA Channels.
However, Videocon, one of the D2H Providers in India, states in it's forum disc as follows :
http://www.dishtracking.com/forum/how-recieve-free-air-channel-on-videocon-satel... : Post # 7 states :
"you cant watch FTA channels until and unless you have the credit (recharge) available."

So, can I therefore, instead buy a Set Top Box or a Digital Video Recorder (DVR) from the Open Mkt, fix the Dish & LNBs etc myself (with the help of a Technician), and view the Free FTA Channels ? I would like to know the step-by-step procedure for going ahead with this installation.

2) On DVR / STB :
I would like to know the important features that are essential, and those features that are desirable-optional, in an STB / DVR, to get this done in a way, that later, if I switch to monthly subscription with one of the branded D2H companies, I can still use the same Dish, same LNB, same STB / DVR etc.
For eg, I read somewhere a stmt like : "You need DVB-S2 Enable Receiver Tuner with options 8 PSK etc for it."
Wrt DVR / STB Features :
i) Do DVRs / STBs always / or optionally come with a USB port(s) ?
If yes, can we connect an Ext Hard Disk to the USB Port of this DVR / STB, and play a Full HD 3D Movie stored in the Ext Hard Disk, on the Full HD 3D TV ?
I am aware that TV itself has 2 USB Ports. But, my query here is if we can connect an Ext HDD to the DVR / STB's USB Port, if there is one.
ii)What are the additional desirable Outputs from a DVR ? ; and from an STB ? :
other than the HDMI output from the DVR / STB to the TV ? For eg, any HeadPhones, any Dig Video Out, any Dig Audio Out, any Optical Output Ports etc ?
iii) Does the DVR have Video Editing features  like for eg, adding overlay-Audio using the MicroPhone Input port for recording Audio, any feature to add subtitles / texts, splitting & combining Video / Audio Files etc ?
iv) Are DVRs / STBs available with 2 HDMI Outputs, so that we can connect the 2 HDMI Outputs to 2 TVs ? ; and thus, watch different Channels simultaneously in the 2 TVs ?

3) On Signal Meter, Magnetic Compass, and Any Other Testing Devices :
For testing purposes, I may need a Signal Meter. I would like to know the essential / desirable-optional features, Make, Cost, Links etc of this Signal Meter ? For eg, does it come with a built-in Magnetic Compass and / or any aid for Polarisation / Azimuth Angle measurement etc ?

4) On LNBs and Antenna Dish :
I have read about Quad LNB and Octo LNB.
Are LNBs with only 2 outputs available ?

I am planning to connect one LNB output to a DVR -> TV 1, and another to an STB -> TV 2
[assuming that Pt (2-b-iv) above is not available / not technically feasible now].

Someone told me that we need a bigger Dia Dish for DVRs.
If yes, I would like to know the Tech reason.
Also, if yes, in this setup with one DVR -> TV 1 and one STB -> TV 2, I guess, we will need to go in for the bigger Dia Dish. Pl confirm / comment with good suggestions.

Would appreciate a complete spec of the best possible / available Dish, LNB (Dual / Quad etc) and Coax Cable (like for eg, Dimensions, Material, Make, Links to read further etc)

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Would appreciate expert point-wise replies.

Thanks in advance.

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Pl also see my subsequent Posting on the foll Titles :

Sat TV, Dish TV, D2H TV ; Sat Internet Diffs
and
On Satellites and Transponders

I separated the queries into these 3 separate Thread Titles, so that there will be less Overlap between these sets of queries.

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USN  Retired,
As I said earlier, I am new to this Satellite / Transponders / Dish / LNB subject.
So, I wish that I could get some little more detailed replies from members, who are experts in this field.

Thanks in Advance (TIA).

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I wish to expand my queries on the specific Points : (2), (3) and (4) of my above Msg 1.
I will post each of these in separate postings following this one.

TIA to whoever is helping me with replies.

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I wish to expand on Point No (4) On LNBs and Antenna Dish, in my Msg # 1 above.

This Msg Sub-Title : Top Quattro LNB Models / Brands ; Control Cmd to each LNB of Quattro LNB

4-a) I would like to know the Top 3  4 Brands of Quattro Universal LNB with very low Noise Temp Ratings (less than or equal to 17 Deg K)  in worldwide markets like US / UK / Singapore, and in India, and their costs.

4-b) Is it possible to control EACH LNB in the Quattro Universal LNBs' Set (ie, ability to change the Pol, as well as change the Band of EACH LNB)  from a single HD-DVR or HD-STB Box ? ie, a scenario, in which all 4 LNB outputs are connected to a single HD-DVR or HD-STB Box.
You can consider the worlds best available HD-DVR or HD-STB Box for this.

If this is possible, then, one can view one Channel in say Tp1-KuHigh-H Pol, and also simultaneously record 3 other Channels Pgm (from say, Tp2-KuLow-VPol, Tp3-KuHigh-Hpol, Tp4-KuLow -VPol) etc. Do you agree ?

I assume that the Azimuth Angle can be changed to match with that of the Transponders, if we have Motorised Dish with USALS DiSEqC 1.3 Compatible Inline Coaxial Cables.
But is there any provision to change the Elevation of the Dish also, as we move from one Satellite to another ?

I would like to know the Specs, Make, Cost etc of such a FullHD-3D-DVR and FullHD-3D -STB Boxes.

Thanks in advance (TIA) for yr replies.

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Perfect pointing is achieved by the skill of the installer, not by the test equipment. Off point the dish slightly each way down to exactly equal degraded signal qualities, then move physically to the centre in both azimuth and elevation.

Normal requirements are a satellite TV type meter and the ability to use the VSAT modem and PC interface to read out the signal quality of the VSAT outlink carrier. Satellite TV type meters vary from the very basic noise power meter to ones incorporating a spectrum analyser capability.

All you really need is a simple noise power meter plus the VSAT modem, or even the VSAT modem only, plus laptop PC at the antenna.

It is nice to have a satellite TV meter which has the ability to recognise a known TV carrier on a particular satellite and thus say "satellite found" - but only if you understand the limitations and know how to use it. It works best if you have done it recently before and know that the TV carrier still exists, is on the same polarisation and the L band pre-tuned frequency in the meter matches your LNB local oscillator frequency.

Initial polarisation alignment is best done by calculation and using an inclinometer sideways across the BUC, with final adjustment done under verbal instruction from the hub NOC. Local optimisation of polarisation needs a decent spectrum analyser and significant skill, similar to peaking up by finding the two steep sides of the cross-pol null and then putting the polarisation angle mechanically to the center. You need +/- 1 deg rotational accuracy.

When choosing a meter with a "satellite TV carrier recognition facility" make sure that it is manually programmable by you (L band tuning and symbol rate) and does not only work with secret codes from the manufacturer. You must be able to verify yourself the calculation: L band frequency equals actual satellite downlink carrier frequency minus LNB LO freq. Only you know the LNB LO frequency that you are using. The manufacturer of the meter does not.

Look here for typical meters:
https://www.sadoun.com/product-category/satellite-tv-products/satellite-dish-sys...

Best regards, Eric.

I wish to expand on Point No (4) On LNBs and Antenna Dish, in my Msg # 1 above.

1) I would like to know if DVRs / STBs are available with 2 Outputs  to connect simultaneously to 2 TVs ie, are 2 HDMI Output ports available ?
Alternatively, can one Output of the Box be a HDMI Port, and another a Coax Cable Port ?

Pl see the LEFT Side Sketch of : Sngl-STB_Sngl-LNB_For-2-TVs_Fig-4.jpg


What will the dB Loss be on account of paralleling 2 outputs from the same DVR / STB ?

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2) On the RIGHT side of the above Sketch, is a config showing 2 output connections from a single LNB, to drive DVR / STB 1 -> TV 1 and DVR / STB 2 -> TV 2.

What will the dB Loss be on account of paralleling 2 outputs from the same LNB ?

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Thanks in Advance (TIA)

Would appreciate if you could quote the Post # No, Query / Point No in yr replies.
Also, it is preferable to state the Sketch File Name in yr answers, since I have loaded 4 different sketches giving various Configurations.

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You need a dedicated dish for a satellite internet downlink/uplink. e.g. Tooway or Hylas.

The two coax cables connect to an indoor satellite internet modem.

Your side of the satellite internet modem is a single ethernet socket with LAN capability - multiple PCs may be connected, normally via a router/wireless/4port device.

Best regards, Eric.

Forum Admin / Eric,

Thanks for properly placing the 4 images, where they are apt, in my Posts.

Thanks for your reply on Quad vs Quattro LNBs.

First, I would like you confirm if these are typo-errors in your Reply # 11 to my Post # 7 :

>> The Quattro LNB does (missed the NOT here ?) do what your diagram suggests.
Your figure showed four wires connected to 4 dipole probes into the circular waveguide. Two wires would each pick up half of vertical polarisation signal power and two wires would each pick up pick up half of horizontal polarisation signal power. To make it work properly you need to merge the 2 vertical polarisation wires into one and then into a broadband LNA. Similarly the horizontal polarisation inputs. Having got two broadband signals (vertical and horizontal) you then need switching and four block downconverters (each with local oscillator and mixer and L band IF amplifier) to feed the four output cables.

>> anywhere with more than 5 (or you meant 4 ?) Satellite TV STBs.
I meant 5 or more.

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The word Permanent in your Reply, was the key clue to my understanding of the diff between Quattro vs Quad.

So, in effect, the word Universal, meaning the ability to change the Band as well as Pol, is NOT applicable to Quattro LNB, since all 4 LNBs are permanently fixed with respect to  Band & Pol.
Appreciate your specific confirmation of this.

Also, as a default, are all Quad LNBs available in the Market, essentially also always Quad UNIVERSAL LNBs ?

Your view that each LNB of the Quattro, is on a diff Band, and diff Pol, is also expressed (by the key word 1/4) in the 1st Post (quoting Wiki) in : http://www.toytowngermany.com/lofi/index.php/t130150.html# :
A Quattro LNB has 4 outputs, EACH of them supplies only 1/4 of the available channels (Lo/Hi band and H/V polarization).
But he could have done better by using permanently also.

In this context, it then seems to me that the explanation given in http://www.tech-faq.com/lnb.html is probably somewhat misleading, since it was because of this definition that until now, I thought that the Quattro can achieve total independence of all 4 LNBs, which in fact now I know, is achievable, in the Quad, not the Quattro.

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Fine, I need Quad (not Quattro).
But, other than this change, I would like to know, what else is not correct in the image (Fig 3), since you have said :
>> The internal arrangement depicted in the image is NOT correct, but the functionality and labels are correct.

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In Post # 4 dated 14th May, 2011, I had raised the following sub-queries  under (4-b) :

The 2nd part of (4-b), re-worded now :
With Motorised Dish, we can change the Azimuth Angle by Remote Commands from the STB. Fine.
But, what about changing the Elevation Angle if we wish to change focus from one Satellite to another, whose Elevation Angle requirement may be drastically different ?

The 1st part of (4-b) :
We know that by using a QUAD Univ LNB, we can connect to 4 diff STBs.
But, is there any Top Brand STB (or DVR) which can accept ALL these 4 Inputs from the 4 LNBs of the Quad ?
If this is possible, one can go on experimenting as a hobby, by connecting the SAME STB / DVR to diff LNBs, each LNB / Transponder, having its own list of FTA Channels.
Plus, with Motorised Dish, we can also focus on diff Sats !  all remotely from the STB / DVR. Only query still is : how do we change the Dish Elevation  also Remotely from the STB / DVR ?

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They have not mentioned the Noise Temp Rating like say, less than 17 Deg K.
If you have info about it, could you please let me know.
0.31 dB  does it give any indication of the Noise Temp Rating ?

Elsewhere, I have seen LNBs with 0.1 nf, 0.3 nf, 0.5 nf, 0.7 nf and 0.8 nf.

Pl confirm that nf implies Nano-Farad Capacitance Value.
If yes, at what location in the LNB's Circuit (like in a High Pass Filter Ckt, or as a Blocking Capacitor etc), is this Nano-Farad Capacitance mounted ?

Is it better to have a higher value, or a lower value, for this nf component ? Which will give better gain ?

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Please also see my latest Post with Fig 5, that I intend to post shortly in :
https://www.satsig.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1305730001


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TIA

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Quote:


In my opinion the noise figures quoted ( 0.1 nf, 0.3 nf, 0.5 nf, 0.7 nf and 0.8 nf. ) are mostly marketing hype. Ignore them. Lower figures mean the device is supposedly less noisy, i.e. better.

By nf they probably are referring to noise figure or noise factor.
The correct abbreviation for nano-farad is nF, and they definitely don't mean that.

Noise figure, noise factor or noise temperature makes no difference to the gain, which is typically about 50 to 60 dB for a domestic LNB.


Read more here: https://www.satsig.net/noise.htm

What matters is the total receive system noise temperature, so the noise temperature of the antenna, mainly due to sidelobe pick up from the warm ground is important. During rain, the noise temperature goes up due to the warm rain so if you are concerned to minimise rain fade outages, more gain from the dish (larger diameter) is a better investment than lower noise temperature in the LNB.

Quote:

The polar axis motor turns the dish along the line of the orbit, so you may point the beam at each satellite, one at a time. The azimuth, elevation and polarisation angles all change simultaneously. There is no extra motor for elevation. You may have read about an additional motor for inclination angle. This is rare and would only be used to track an inclined orbit satellite. The inclination movement would be north-south, at right angles to the east-west orbit line.

Best regards, Eric.