Query: ADSL v Satellite : Speed : Latency

There is always a bit of delay on satellite internet ... unfortunately, nothing can be done about the distance to the satellite and the speed of light.

If I put in bbc.co.uk into my browser, the page starts to load in a few seconds and finishes in about 10. Other websites will vary.

I use Tooway 18 for my business but I'm also a provider for Tooway Direct in France  and that means all the equipment is supplied from here ... trust me,  it works!

Signal latency.

For geostationary satellites, there is no way to eliminate latency.

Source, Wikipedia, for more info click here.

Latency is the delay between requesting data and the receipt of a response, or in the case of one-way communication, between the actual moment of a signal's broadcast and the time it is received at its destination.

Geostationary unsuitable for low-latency applications.

A (or geostationary Earth orbit/GEO) is a geosynchronous orbit directly above the Earth's equator (0° latitude), with a period equal to the Earth's rotational period and an orbital eccentricity of approximately zero. An object in a geostationary orbit appears motionless, at a fixed position in the sky, to ground observers. Communications satellites and weather satellites are often given geostationary orbits, so that the satellite antennas that communicate with them do not have to move to track them, but can be pointed permanently at the position in the sky where they stay. Due to the constant 0° latitude and circularity of geostationary orbits, satellites in GEO differ in location by longitude only.

Compared to ground-based communication, all geostationary satellite communications experience high latency due to the signal having to travel (2x) 35,786 km (22,236 mi) to a satellite in geostationary orbit and back to Earth again. Even at the speed of light (about 300,000 km/s or 186,000 miles per second), this delay can be significant. If all other signalling delays could be eliminated, it still takes a radio signal about 250 milliseconds (ms), or about a quarter of a second, to travel to the satellite and back to the ground. The absolute minimum total amount of delay is variable, due to the satellite staying in one place in the sky, while ground based users can be directly below with a roundtrip latency of 239.6 ms, or far to the side of the planet near the horizon with a roundtrip latency of 279.0 ms.

For an internet packet, that delay is doubled before a reply is received. That is the theoretical minimum. Factoring in other normal delays from network sources gives a typical one-way connection latency of 500–700 ms from the user to the ISP,or about 1,000–1,400 ms latency for the total round-trip time (RTT) back to the user. This is much more than most dial-up users experience at typically 150–200 ms total latency, and two orders of magnitude higher than the typical 15-40 ms latency experienced by users of other high-speed internet services, such as cable or VDSL.

For geostationary satellites, there is no way to eliminate latency, but the problem can be somewhat mitigated in Internet communications with TCP acceleration features that shorten the round trip time (RTT) per packet by splitting the feedback loop between the sender and the receiver. Such acceleration features are usually present in recent technology developments embedded in new satellite Internet services.


Satellite latency (Avanti Hylas-1).


ADSL latency (British Telecom).

In order to get the price per customer down, the Tooway system involves a finite amount of satellite bit rate capacity shared amongst all customer sites in each spot beam.

All sites, with the same technical equipment, have the same uplink and down link bit rate capability.  

But, because customers differ in their requirements and how much they can afford, a fair access policy (FAP) is used to try and match tariff paid and useage.  Limits on maximum bit rate per second and Mbytes downloaded per time period form a fair access policy.

Over the next 14 years the satellite will fill up and, while it may be feasible now to give customers much larger Mbyte allowances, these would have to be reduced in the future to keep congestion under control.

A number of FAP systems have been tried and adapted to try to satisfy the majority of customers. Daily allowances, monthly allowances, FAP free after midnight etc - all been tried. The challenge is to find a compromise between these two extremes:
FAP OFF: free-for-all all of the time = complaints about congestion during peak traffic times.
FAP ON: with traffic limits per second, hour, 4 hrs, day, 4 days, week, month = complaints about Mbyte limits.

My preference would be daily limit from 7am till 11pm. Free-for-all from 11pm till 7am.

It is inevitable that a very few customers will not be happy if their expectations exceed what the system can provide for the price they can afford.

Ask your service provider about tariffs for much larger monthly download amounts. Avanti/HYLAS is an alternative to Tooway. You could ask about that as well, if you are in one of the Avanti/HYLAS spot beams.

Qexceeded you obviously have no idea about the true cost of running a satellite service.  I would go into detail to provide further explanation but it would not be worth it

In short, the speed and data you get is incredibly high in relation to its true cost.

(The Hylas 2 service you linked from WAFA's website is for KA-Band across the Middle East and North Africa) You would be looking for the Hylas 1 service for Europe

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So you mean someone at/behind Tooway is paying for my and others service in addition to what users pay, as it is so expensive? Sounds great!

But not really believable, if they could afford as someone mentioned shortly to double the data allowance I guess they were making money before and after doing this.

Again the Tooway system runs pretty good, (if anything is working), no doubt, but the monthly data allowance is simply far to low, at least on the above Hylas page they warn about youtube/friends. But this is what people tend to use heavily these days online!

So they should be aware that they have to heavily reduce their youtube & friends usage, while using Tooway or other sat based ISP. That is all I wanted to say, no reason to call me an idiot.

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OK, I looked over https://www.europe-satellite.com/ but was incapable to easily find any pricing info, for Hylas I service? Perhaps I am to dump or they are trying to hide those informations from potential customers, anyway not really intelligent...;-(

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We really don't understand your remarks regarding prices, I found the following info today.



---> Make sure you read also the small prints !

From February 2013, all new packages (with the exception of our low user 2Mbps package) will have a flat rate, up to 20Mbps download and 6mbps upload speed. The Tooway M, L and XL packages will have monthly data allowances of 10GB, 20GB and 30GB respectively. In addition, Tooway L and XL will have a brand new UNLIMITED night-time allowance. The Tooway ABSOLUTE package will have unlimited data day and night.

All packages are subject to a fair use or fair access policy (“FAP”) and all speeds quoted (download and upload) are “up to” speeds although you should expect to see performance at or close to the “headline” speeds if you are not restricted in any manner

The FAP has been designed to be as open and flexible as possible, while ensuring fair use for all users. Unlike other services, where you are charged for additional data used above your monthly limit, Avonline's service is based upon fixed data ("flat rate") allowance each month (plus night-time allowance where relevant). It's like pay as you go ("PAYG") mobile – once you've used up your (daily) allowance for the month, your system effectively stops (ie. runs at a maximum speed of 128Kbps) until the next months allowance is due to be credited to your account.

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Sounds good, if true? Although why was I told by toowaydirect support that the nightly half data count was canceled, when avonline even offer zero data count nightly?

So how come avonline using Tooway can deliver much better packages then Tooway(direct) itself? I still don't get it, perhaps I have been ripped off or this avonline is a scam?

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Michael ... calm down, 'ripped off' and 'scam' is not acceptable language and you will just alienate people who otherwise would be pleased to help you. The new Tooway packages that you see on the Avonline website were only announced at 9am today. Other service providers will update their websites in due course ...
https://www.toowaydirect.com/2013/01/tooway-services-climb-to-20-mb/

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Michael, I believe it's country specific, so 23.00 to 07.00 French time as you're based in France.

You can migrate to the new packages, it's not automatic though.

If you exceed your daytime quota, your night usage is not affected.

I only received the new package details this morning at 9am and my site is being changed over the weekend. Just contact me in the usual way if you want to change package

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That can only mean that you're using the wrong email address or that you're connecting to the wrong website address or you're trying to ring the wrong telephone number.

All of these seemed to have worked when you needed a replacement Tria last year and a replacement was then sent out to you. Nothing has changed ... very strange.

I've tried to help you, but I don't have that amount of spare time so I can only suggest that you contact one of the other suppliers that have privately touted for your business

End of the story.