SatSig topic:

Avanti or Tooway

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Nov 27^th, 2011 at 9:55am

With the latest KA band satellite internet services at realistic prices I am again looking at the options. I am in the UK have been reading this forum and spoken with several providers. I don't think there is too much to choose between the two options with similar monthly costs although the Avanti hardware is more expensive for the initial install. The Avanti has much better contention ratios and I could have a static UK IP address although it looks like Tooway now also have UK dynamic addresses. I don't like the Tooway FAP although I understand why they think they need it but Avanti appear to just use a monthly limit. VOIP would be very useful but again I can't establish if there would be any difference in quality between these two providers. 9E or 33.5W is not a problem for installation, I have a steerable system for TV .From posts in this forum there also seems to be possible issues with support quality with Tooway. Any feedback to help me decide between the two would be welcome.

Thanks

Nov 27^th, 2011 at 8:19pm

Thanks but I am not too sure how your advert helps me make a decision, there seems to be a distinct lack of useful information, just a sales pitch.

Nov 27^th, 2011 at 9:07pm

titan wrote
Quote:

Thanks but I am not too sure how your advert helps me make a decision, there seems to be a distinct lack of useful information, just a sales pitch.

Hi,

As well as the information in our 'advert' we have also sent you information by email to allow you to compare both systems, which should give you a much clearer picture. You can also find info about both systems on our internet site.

Our recommendation would be a Hylas system which offers a better network and (more importantly) better support. Tooway is a consumer product with a consumer level of support, Hylas is a professional system with a professional support.

Our advice is based only on our own experience and therefore we would advise you to consult other companies and also other users before you make a final decision. In general both systems are good but the support from Avanti (24/7 phone support) is much better than from Skylogic (24/5 support via a ticket system).

So your only (Hylas) disadvantage will be a slightly higher initial cost of the hardware and installation.

Finally, you get what you pay for !!

Success,

Nov 28^th, 2011 at 10:35am

Good Morning

I've sent you an email detailing advantages/disadvantages for both systems.

Thanks

Dave.

Dec 6^th, 2011 at 5:27pm

The main disadvantage with Tooway is the FAP. Avanti provides a data limit per month which goes back to zero each 1st month. If you have a data limit of 8GB and you use it all in one day Avanti doesn't care. Plus you can have more data (making the system in essence unlimited). You just pay for the extra.

Dec 6^th, 2011 at 6:09pm

Broadband-Algarve wrote
Quote:

The main disadvantage with Tooway is the FAP. Avanti provides a data limit per month which goes back to zero each 1st month. If you have a data limit of 8GB and you use it all in one day Avanti doesn't care. Plus you can have more data (making the system in essence unlimited). You just pay for the extra.

With the FAP systems of Tooway and Hylas one is not necessarily better than the other they just use different ways to control bandwidth usage.

Both ways of monitoring bandwidth usage have positive and negative points.

The Tooway FAP systems is NOT a disadvantage at all. It monitors the user at several levels to prevent him using his monthly volume within 1 day, week etc. This can be a big advantage for users who don't regularly monitor their own usage on-line.

The Hylas FAP system works on a different level, a user is free to use his monthly volume any time he wishes but ................. in this case a user has to be very careful and must monitor his system on a regular basis. It is very easy to consume the whole bandwidth volume in one day if you are not careful (download 4 films and spend a few hours on Youtube).

Tooway bandwidth usage controll (FAP).

Avanti Hylas online usage information and a warning via email when 80% of your monthly bandwidth volume has been used.

The main difference between the products are :

1) Initial costs.
2) Level of support.
3) An UK IP at any location within the Hylas-1 footprint outside the UK.

In our experience the Avanti-Hylas network is much more stable.

Finally, both systems offer the user an "unlimited*" usage. Tooway users can buy Tokens to top-up bandwidth volume and Avanti-Hylas provides an "unlimited*" service. The only difference is the payment, Tooway you pay upfront and Avanti-Hylas after the calendar month for extra bandwidth.

The only limit is your bank account !

Finally, you get what you pay for !!

*The word 'unlimited' indicates that the quantity (MBytes or GBytes) of your traffic (uploads and downloads) is not artificially limited by a tariff based, pre-determined traffic allowance per unit time period. Sometimes also referred to as a 'FAP free service'. A truly unlimited service provides the customer with the specified uplink and downlink bit rates, available for continuous transmissions, uninterrupted 24/7 useage.

Dec 6^th, 2011 at 11:14pm

With reference to the comment:-

"The Tooway FAP systems is NOT a disadvantage at all. It monitors the user at several levels to prevent him using his monthly volume within 1 day, week etc.""

Isn't the whole point that the connection is yours, the data is yours, and you should be able to use it when and how you like without restriction?

Dec 7^th, 2011 at 2:57am

Quote:

Isn't the whole point that the connection is yours, the data is yours, and you should be able to use it when and how you like without restriction?

Generally, no.

Very cheap domestic tariffs are based on shared useage of the satellite capacity where up to several thousand users share what is available. A FAP makes sure that each user gets what they pay for, according to their tariff.

If someone wants 'without restriction' then they need to buy a dedicated service, which might cost $3000 - $9000 per month per MHz.

Best regards, Eric

Dec 7^th, 2011 at 8:35am

Fair point. However from experience we spend endless hours trying to explain the Tooway FAP to customers who find it very difficult to understand and whom really don't know why they have limits for periods other than the month.

Dec 7^th, 2011 at 11:17am

Maybe explain that they need to keep their average bit rates below the threshold for each sliding time window: 667 kbit/s in any hour, 333 kbit/s in any 4 hours, 92 kbit/s in any day, 33 kbit/s in any week and 19.8 kbit/s in any 4 weeks.

Obviously these numbers need to be adjusted according to the tariff. Also I am not sure that Tooway are actually applying all of the limits in the KA-SAT network. Ask, they may have just the 1 hour and 28 days limits activated, I am not sure.

Whatever, do encourage them to familiarise themselves with the traffic monitor bar graph display like that above.

Dec 7^th, 2011 at 11:38am

We've explained until we are blue in the face. Done drawings, examples, user guides. The main issue people have is why the usage does not go back to zero at the beginning of every month (as Avanti does).

But both systems have their merits as do other internet systems. Cost, reliability, what the user is doing on the web, how much data they need, where they prefer their IP address to be (Avanti UK and Tooway Italy), the list is endless.

Dec 7^th, 2011 at 1:47pm

Broadband-Algarve wrote
Quote:

We've explained until we are blue in the face. Done drawings, examples, user guides. The main issue people have is why the usage does not go back to zero at the beginning of every month (as Avanti does).

But both systems have their merits as do other internet systems. Cost, reliability, what the user is doing on the web, how much data they need, where they prefer their IP address to be (Avanti UK and Tooway Italy), the list is endless.

If you inform users "very clear upfront" you should never have any problems, they are very simple to explain.

Both systems offer the user extra bandwidth if needed, you pay Tooway upfront and Avanti-Hylas afterwards.

*Tooway goes back to zero after a 30 days window, zero day depends on your activation date and is not fixed to the first day of the month.

Dec 7^th, 2011 at 5:18pm

Would a graduated speed limit be a better alternative, where the speed is adjusted every 5 minutes in relation to the proportion used so far ? The objective being to avoid sudden dramatic speed reductions and increases.

Hughes HX uses first and second stage thresholds for dual stage speed limiting, based on a zeroised start every day at 4am and two thresholds on the accumulated traffic during the 20 hours till midnight. Then back to full speed in every case, but free-for-all from midnight till 4am.

More thoughts and comment welcome.

Best regards, Eric.

Dec 7^th, 2011 at 7:58pm

We have diagrams galore but even after explaining numerous times people still dont get the Tooway FAP. I had a customer who has been on Tooway for 18 months ask me the other day if any usage they have leftover from a previous month is pulled forward as they wanted to download some films from iTunes and were pretty much instantly FAP'd on their Tooway KU system.

People just simply dont understand it.

The simplest option is you have a certain limit each month and if you use it all before the end of the month then you cant get online. People seem to get this concept pretty immediately.

Dec 7^th, 2011 at 10:00pm

Quote:

The simplest option is you have a certain limit each month and if you use it all before the end of the month then you cant get online. People seem to get this concept pretty immediately.

That option also works very well with just a daily allowance.

It is nice to know that you will always be returned to normal speed with a zeroised traffic record, at midnight.

Best regards, Eric.

Feb 9^th, 2012 at 10:33am

QUOTE: Maybe explain that they need to keep their average bit rates below the threshold for each sliding time window: 667 kbit/s in any hour, 333 kbit/s in any 4 hours, 92 kbit/s in any day, 33 kbit/s in any week and 19.8 kbit/s in any 4 weeks.

With respect, this isn't necessarily the way people think. Sometimes I want to download a program update which is hundreds of megs and then something else comes up, also big. But these might be the only large downloads that I've done for two weeks. It may have improved now, but in the past I have suspected that the fap clamps down halfway through.

Another subject: how much Tooway hardware will be usable for a switch to Hylas? Surely at least the dish?

Feb 9^th, 2012 at 1:31pm

Quote:

QUOTE: Maybe explain that they need to keep their average bit rates below the threshold for each sliding time window: 667 kbit/s in any hour, 333 kbit/s in any 4 hours, 92 kbit/s in any day, 33 kbit/s in any week and 19.8 kbit/s in any 4 weeks.

With respect, this isn't necessarily the way people think. Sometimes I want to download a program update which is hundreds of megs and then something else comes up, also big. But these might be the only large downloads that I've done for two weeks. It may have improved now, but in the past I have suspected that the fap clamps down halfway through.

Another subject: how much Tooway hardware will be usable for a switch to Hylas? Surely at least the dish?

The coax cables (RG6 2x25m) and the pole as long it is 60mm should be ok to use, not sure about the dish (Don't think it will work !) but if you change to Hylas you get a dish anyway. So it is better to put your old Tooway system for sale "complete" if you want to get rid of it.

1) Tooway Ka band system on Hotbird. 2) Tooway Ku band on EB3a or AB1 3) Tooway Ka band on KA-SAT.

Above the Tooway family, it will be helpful if you specify your system.

Avanti Hylas Ka band system on Hylas-1

If you have an old Tooway Ku system, you can use the dish and lnb for TV reception.

If you have an old Tooway Ka system (Hotbird) ............... just bin it Sad

We have a special offer on free Hylas systems, visit our website for more info.

You can find more info here, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satellite_dish

Dear Mr. Fendweller, please keep us up-to-date.

Feb 9^th, 2012 at 4:54pm

You would need to swap out everything except the mounting pole unfortunately.

Feb 9^th, 2012 at 10:43pm

Why. because it's oval? Murdoch tried that crap. I'm still using an analogue Sky dish for Freesat!. It's just a parabolic dish isn't it? I guess the distance to the horn has to be right?
I'm prepared to be wrong but I never like to be told "no" with no explanation.

Later: sorry old chap, that sounds very rude. I can't help being a cantankerous old bugger.

Feb 10^th, 2012 at 12:03pm

Significantly elliptical antennas
Significantly elliptical dishes produce a beam that is narrower in one direction and wider in the other. In the direction along the wider diameter the sidelobes are lower. Provided you align the dish so that the wider diameter is along the geostationary orbit line you will reduce the interference you cause into the adjacent satellites and reduce the interference you receive from the adjacent satellites.

This image shows the rear view of an elliptical dish aimed at a Hughes satellite to the south west from the USA. The transmit-receive module has it polarisation fixed relative to the dish and the whole dish is adjusted in polarisation using a scale at the rear. The wide diameter of the dish is simultaneously kept in line along the orbit, thus reducing interference. Other satellites are to the upper left or lower right.

Use of reflectors not as intended.
Front fed antennas, whether symmetric or offset, use a parabolic shape and have a fixed focal point. You can put any kind of radiator feed at the focal point. A waveguide aperture or conical horn is normal at microwave frequencies but a dipole or yagi antenna is possible for VHF/UHF type frequencies and very large dishes. Provided the dish surface has an accurate shape and smooth metal surface it will work at all frequencies. The feed should direct most of its energy at the dish. If you want to experiment with different feeds and frequencies note the following: You don't know the location of the phase centre of the feed so you will have to experiment with different distances to get it into focus. Scalar feeds with a waveguide surrounded by rings has a phase centre just at the aperture. Conical horns have a phase centre that could be anywhere from the throat to the aperture, depending on the flare angle and the frequency. The surface quality of the dish is important, as is the overall shape. Wire mesh will suffice at low frequencies; solid metal is needed at higher frequencies. In the case of 'fibreglass/plastic' antennas the reflecting metal is not known. Some older such 'plastic' antennas has a hidden mesh that was only good for C band. Surface accuracy overall should be 1/10 wavelength or better. This is quite difficult to achieve and many installed dishes are so badly distored that they lose perhaps 3 dB of gain - which is not noticed in many cases as it still permits full quality operation in clear sky and the customer does not realise that they suffer longer than average rain outages.! Read about the fishing line test: https://www.satsig.net/pointing/rear-side-struts.htm
wxw
Best regards. Eric.

Feb 10^th, 2012 at 12:17pm

Freesat is a completely different ballpark, being a one-way service.

Both the Avanti dish and the Tooway dish are designed literally to work with their specific service.

The focal point will be out, as well as the BUC/LNB being incompatable with the Dish arms of the Avanti.

Feb 10^th, 2012 at 1:50pm

Quote:

The surface quality of the dish is important, as is the overall shape. Wire mesh will suffice at low frequencies; solid metal is needed at higher frequencies. In the case of 'fibreglass/plastic' antennas the reflecting metal is not known. Some older such 'plastic' antennas has a hidden mesh that was only good for C band.

We have tested Hylas Ka band system on different PVC/Plastic dishes original provided with Tooway (Channel Master, Prodelin, Visiosat) Ku systems, it just does not work.

Beside this, in case you have problems, performance issues etc. when using parts not provided with an original kit, every provider will advise you FIRST to change it all to the way it should be before they can or will support you.

In this case, trying to save a few $$ on a dish does not make much sense (you get a new dish anyway), it's better to sell the old kit as a complete kit.

Dear Mr. Fendweller, please keep us up-to-date.

Feb 29^th, 2012 at 11:39am

Well I certainly wouldn't recommend Tooway. I'm in Spain and had Tooway installed about 6 months ago. It's slow, slow, slow. They sent me a new modem to try solve the problem and it didn't make any difference. Then they said they would phone but never did.

It's OK if you want to get up at around 4-5am to do your work but from 8am - midnight...forget it!

Mar 6^th, 2012 at 6:01pm

Quote:

We have diagrams galore but even after explaining numerous times people still dont get the Tooway FAP.

I certainly don't understand it. Can anyone simplify it for me??

Mar 6^th, 2012 at 7:00pm

Here is my attempt to describe the Tooway FAP (NB. This does not apply to Avanti-Hylas) :

Every 5 minutes, the amount of downloading you have done during the previous 12 five minute periods is added up. If you exceed your hour allowance you will get slowed down. A similar rule may apply to periods of 4 hours, day, week and 4 week periods, all being recalculated and your FAP status (slow or fast) updated every 5 minutes.

Anyone else is welcome to draft their own versions of simplified explanation of Tooway FAP below.

Best regards, Eric.

Nov 10^th, 2012 at 8:09pm

In C.- Europe (RS, HU, BG, SK) and N.- Iraq we maintain Tooway. We have ended all KU Hughes connections and Hylas-1 does not offer coverage in all Countries.
Our support had to respond to only 2 tickets in this year, mainly W7 NIC setting issues. (52 VSAT's)
Only in RS we have experience with Avanti (Hylas-1 -so Hughes platform-) but we have as many problems as with W2A KU in 'the old' days. Mainly throttle issues.
We are very happy with Tooway, however there is no VAR or Country related policy with Skylogic, as allmost Tesco and an army of hardware peddlers sell Tooway VSAT's.
The pricing of Hughes hardware has allways been, and is still is beyond any proportion compared to prices one pay to distributors directly.
Furthermore: the ultimate simplicity of setting up and commissioning a Tooway VSAT is extreme uncomplicated, except on 'edges' of beams sometimes, but with simple 'tricks' 99,9 % of all installs are finished within 45 minutes.

Briefly: working with Tooway is just fun for the field-'boyzz'.

Nov 16^th, 2012 at 4:39pm

Going back to the FAP explanation.

Tooway removed sliding windows since the upgrade of the packages

T6 - T8
T8 - T12
T10 - T18
T10+ - T18 Max

Its now just a flat monthly reset