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TooWay Problems

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ChrisH
Ex Member


Apr 27th, 2012 at 1:53pm  
I've seen the previous posts on this but there seems to have been no conclusion.

You will see that I am only barely competent after reading this post so I need simple answers rather technical - for me "bandwidth" is to do with the size of my belt not anything electrical!

Briefly, I subscribed to the French Tooway supplier Connexion Verte in November and have never had a satisfactory service. I installed the dish myself and have a strong signal according to my box.

When I use any speed test, I am getting near to and sometimes exceeding their download speed of 10mb. But....

I got the Tooway system as we can only get1/2 meg here - I live in a very remote location. The old system was slow but supported most of what I wanted including VOIP.

I have not cancelled the landline service because the Tooway system is MUCH slower in actual terms than the 1/2 meg system.

I have to download photos in bulk and it takes 30secs to a minute to download an image even in low res on Tooway. The landline system is quicker.

Connexion Verte say that there is NO problem as the speed test shows I am getting the contracted speed but, with the greatest respect to them that's ba**s.

They say if there's a problem it's with my kit but using the 3meg service at my wife's cousin in the UK produces the sort of response I was expecting. I used both my laptop and my IPhone - they both respond the same on both systems.

Now at the moment I am stuck with my landline - I daren't get rid of it - and an expensive satellite system. The French are dismissive of my complaint and I would like something heavy with which to hit them.

Can anyone help?




I've just received a reply directly from EMS which says

"Check IP settings of all connected equipment especial if you use a router" As I said above I'm not a techie - can anyone explain this for me - or give me a better answer?

Thanks
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« Last Edit: Apr 27th, 2012 at 5:44pm by N/A »  
 
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creusetec
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Reply #1 - Apr 28th, 2012 at 9:21am  
If you use a wireless router , try connecting the  the computer directly to the tooway modem  with an ethernet cable and see if that makes any difference .

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Eric Johnston
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Reply #2 - Apr 28th, 2012 at 10:31am  
creusetec has the right idea.

Measure the download time for downloading a specific large image. Write it down. Then remove the router and repeat the measurements. Repeat till you are certain it either has no effect or makes an improvement.

If you get no improvement, investigate the IP setings of the network interface of the PC (while PC is alone connected to the Tooway modem) .
"Start, Control Panel, Network and Sharing Centre, Change Adaptor settings, View status of this connection, Properties, Select Internet Protocol V4, Properties.
Obtain IP address and DNS should both be Auto.
If not, note down on paper what they were so you can back out, change both to Auto, OK etc."

Repeat the image download time test. Does it make any difference?.

If removing the router improves matters, investigate the routers IP configuration. The WAN (internet) side should be auto. The LAN side (your wired and wireless PCs) is for you to design. Defaults and Auto on all your PCs should work. If you have static fixed LAN IPs they must all be different and all the subnet masks must be the same. If you have fixed DNS, the choice should be whatever suits Tooway.

All above assumes some IP or routing problem in your equipments. There is the possibility that you have been deliberately slowed down due to exceeding your download limit per time period. If so, you will be speeded up again once your average speed over the last hour, day, week, 4 weeks drops below your limits etc. Ask Connection Verte about your FAP status. PCs periodically ask for anti-virus or large software update downloads. Since these are not time critical I suggest leaving these to run slowly on your landline at night. The Tooway sytem is not intended for peer to peer applications such as Kazza or WinMX. If your images come, or are sent, in such fashion then Tooway may be deliberately slowing the flow. A virus on your PC might also cause traffic to exceed your limits.

Despite all the above comments, the fault, as you suspect, may well be in the Tooway network. There have been other similar reports so keep on complaining. It needs lots of end user complainers to get the message through to Skylogic in Italy, who operate the Tooway network. You are talking to a local reseller who does not see the whole picture and can't correlate similar problem reports coming from scattered users. Make sure your reseller is reporting trouble to Skylogic and not just dismissing your report.

One further thought. You say you installed the dish yourself and have a strong signal. This is not the right idea. Just getting a strong signal is not acceptable. It is not like satellite TV where getting a good enough signal is an acceptable end to the alignment effort.
Your objective is to get the satellite into the centre of the beam. The top of the receive beam is quite rounded and broad and there is a wide range of movements over which the receive signal can be measured and described as excellent. None of these positions is acceptable if the beam is not actually centred on the satellite. When aligning, mispoint the dish slightly in all four directions and set to the mid point between four equally degraded positions. The resulting accurate centering means the narrower transmit beam is also aimed at the satellite. The Tooway NOC can produce daily/weekly graphs of your transmit signal link quality into the gateway teleport if they are so inclined and could thus detect any mispointing.

Best regards, Eric.
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ChrisH
Ex Member


Reply #3 - Apr 28th, 2012 at 4:39pm  
Hi Guys

Thanks for this I will be lookingck at all the answers over the weekend and will report back.
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ChrisH
Ex Member


Reply #4 - Apr 30th, 2012 at 8:42am  
Thanks Guys.

Looks as though the problem may be with the Router. I've played with the settings and this seems to have improved things.

Thanks for your help

Chris
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MrMuckyPaws
Ex Member


Reply #5 - May 3rd, 2012 at 3:59pm  
One thing you need to get used to with Tooway is the signal latency - essential there is much more of a pause before anything happens, but one data starts to flow it is very quick.

For example I use FTP to update my website. Used in the traditional method where each file is 'put' onto the host you'll find you can barely upload one file (small htlm/text) per 10-15 seconds as each command back and forth has a typical 750ms latency. Once you start to upload a large file the actual transfer speed is in the order of 1MB/s (i.e. 8-10Mbps).

So, if you are downloading lots of photos, each photo needs a set of commands to initiate the download each of which has its latency.

The way around this is I zip up my website to a 90MB ZIP file and upload this in one go which is typically very fast. I then unzip the file on my web host which then puts everything in the right place.

If I use conventional (per file) ftp to upload the site I'd be lucky to manage 90MB in an hour, whereas one 90MB file takes about 2-3minutes.

Using Tooway compared to ADSL/ LES/ MPLS etc takes a bit of getting used to and sometimes you have to think laterally to get an acceptable experience compared to how you used to do thing.

I accept all that Eric says w.r.t alignment which is critical and the above may not be a complete solution but as a fellow photographer who deals with large amounts of files online it struck a chord with your situation.

Your speedtests will show a throughput of 8-10Mbps (often much higher), but its the signal latency that gives an overall poor impression of the service compared to the 10-30ms latency of ADSL.

w.r.t the router comment, whilst they can go bad I suspect in this instance its more of a latency issue.

SECURITY ISSUE: Be careful when plugging your PC directly into the Modem (bypassing the router) as I do not believe the modem has any kind of firewall built in and thus your PC/ Mac will be exposed to 'raw' internet. Turn off ALL incoming connections before you plug it in via the Windows/ Mac software firewalls and make sure your a/v software is up to date - especially if its on Windows Wink
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« Last Edit: May 4th, 2012 at 8:05am by Admin1 »  
 
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pladecalvo
Ex Member


Reply #6 - May 14th, 2012 at 5:49pm  
Quote:
When I use any speed test, I am getting near to and sometimes exceeding their download speed of 10mb. But....

I got the Tooway system as we can only get1/2 meg here - I live in a very remote location. The old system was slow but supported most of what I wanted including VOIP.

I have not cancelled the landline service because the Tooway system is MUCH slower in actual terms than the 1/2 meg system.

Connexion Verte say that there is NO problem as the speed test shows I am getting the contracted speed but, with the greatest respect to them that's ba**s.

I have the same problem with Tooway Chris. I've given up complaining to them . All I get is the standard "We have checked the system and everything is working correctly" but when I ask them why, if the system is working correctly, pages are taking anything from 20 seconds to 45 seconds, everyone at Tooway seems to vanish!!
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bigdishsat
Ex Member


Reply #7 - May 15th, 2012 at 8:41pm  
Here's a non-techie way of checking the speed of your system ... do the same test on your half-meg system and Tooway and compare results.

Go to http://www.thinkbroadband.com/download.html and click on the 50MB download file. Time how long it takes and, from that, you can tell how fast your system is running without relying on speed test sites.

As an example, I've just downloaded that file on my Tooway 6 system and it took 66 seconds ... so, that's 50 MB x 8 = 400 Mbits divided by 66 seconds = 6.06 Mb/s.

The same file downloaded on France Telecom broadband took 6.5 minutes ... so that's 400 Mbits divided by 390 secs (6.5 x 60 secs) = 1.02 Mb/s which is just about what FT say is the expected download speed.

The fact that Tooway took a bit longer to actually access that site is nothing to do with the running speed and that has been explained in previous posts.

So, do the test ... directly on to your modem as Martin has suggested.

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pladecalvo
Ex Member


Reply #8 - May 16th, 2012 at 9:39am  
Thanks for that bigdish. I did the test and the file took 77 seconds which indicates, if I have worked it out correctly, that my speed is 5.19 Mb/S. (Via the router it took 79 seconds).

Now, being a non-techie, what I can't get my head around is this. If the speed is indeed 5.19 Mb/S, why is it that when I compare my page load time against my neighbours page load time (he only has a download speed of 3Mb/S with a USB dongle) on this site for example...

http://www.lonelyplanet.com/canada

...his page loads in 4 seconds whilst mine takes 33 seconds. I have twice the download speed that he has yet his page loads 10 times faster than mine. (sometimes, on a Monday morning I have to wait up to 1.15 minutes to get a page up).

If you can explain why this is, (in non-tech language if you can please) it would be appreciated.

I have had the dish alignment checked and the computer formatted.

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« Last Edit: May 19th, 2012 at 7:20am by Admin1 »  
 
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bigdishsat
Ex Member


Reply #9 - May 16th, 2012 at 11:10am  
Just tried that link ... 24 seconds on my Tooway 6 to fully download that page. That's fairly consistent with Eric's description of web browsing via satellite ...

"When web browsing via satellite expect an initial two to three seconds delay followed by the web page loading.  The time taken for total page load could be in the order of 10 to 20 seconds or more, depending on the complexity of the page such as the number and size of embedded image files etc."

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pladecalvo
Ex Member


Reply #10 - May 16th, 2012 at 12:37pm  
So it's fair to say that satellite internet is  NOT what could be described as 'FAST'?

Where I've been going wrong is assuming that satellite internet was fast when it obviously isn't!! I certainly don't consider sitting here for over 30 seconds waiting for a page to load to be 'fast'...and that's what Tooway advertise, "Fast Broadband". If I could be bothered with the effort I would try to prosecute under 'Trade Descriptions' because 'Fast Broadband' it certainly isn't.

My old dongle with 2-3Mb/S download was faster.

I'm going to try a new WI-FI system in November, hopefully that will be better. If Tooway is an indication of satellite communication they can keep it!
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MrMuckyPaws
Ex Member


Reply #11 - May 18th, 2012 at 2:15pm  
Raw download bandwidth of Tooway is fast, what you are all getting mislead by is the latency between each 'command'.

Once a data stream starts then it downloads as expected (1.2MB/s on my 10Mbps connection).

When a web page is requested then every element of it (picture, icon, piece of text, script etc) has to be requested by a separate command and is these commands and the latency between them that cumulatively makes the page seem to take a long time to load. Imagine a page of 10 elements, each one will need a 'request element x' command with its associated 700+ms delay... it soon adds up.

Give Tooway a single large file such as a Microsoft update, video or music file and it flies.

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pladecalvo
Ex Member


Reply #12 - May 18th, 2012 at 3:53pm  
Quote:
Give Tooway a single large file such as a Microsoft update, video or music file and it flies.

...but if you just want to get your mail or browse the net it's useless! 

So, as I said, satellite internet is not what one would consider 'fast'
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europe-satellite.com
Ex Member


Reply #13 - May 18th, 2012 at 4:04pm  
Quote:
...but if you just want to get your mail or browse the net it's useless!

So, as I said, satellite internet is not what one would consider 'fast'

What is FAST and what is SLOW ?

Fast for you can be slow for me and slow for me can be fast for you.


"...his page loads in 4 seconds whilst mine takes 33 seconds. I have twice the download speed that he has yet his page loads 10 times faster than mine. (sometimes, on a Monday morning I have to wait up to 1.15 minutes to get a page up)."

This problem is not related to latency or heavy internet pages etc. It can be a problem due to IP settings locally or a network (MAC address) conflict at the provider (we have seen this in the past).

The ONLY way to solve this is first : get a professional IT engineer (not the guy from the pub or next door) with network know-how to check you local system.

If this is all OK you have to contact your provider, they must contact Skylogic and check your settings.

It can be helpful if Skylogic delete your system in the database and start an activation from zero.

We did a few weeks ago an install of a Tooway KA-SAT system close to Nantes in France (Beam Blue) without any problems, click on http://www.satsig.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=tooway;action=display;num=13372...

Check your MODEN and TRIA status, it shows you at least your signal info etc.
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« Last Edit: May 19th, 2012 at 1:39pm by N/A »  
 
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pladecalvo
Ex Member


Reply #14 - May 19th, 2012 at 5:51am  
Dish alignment and settings have been checked by regions of Tooway/BW installers and found to be OK.

Tooway insist that the system is working perfectly but when I ask why the page takes so long to load...they stop responding to mail and disappear.

Having done the 50mb download test, it would appear that the system IS giving me the contracted download speed - the question is, is 30 seconds to load a page considered 'fast' by you bods that are experts.

Contacted Skylogic directly and they did not get a reply.
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« Last Edit: May 19th, 2012 at 8:48am by N/A »  
 
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pladecalvo
Ex Member


Reply #15 - May 19th, 2012 at 6:07am  
Quote:
Check proxy settings !
I'm convinced it's something to do with the amount of people using the system. If I go on at 3 or 4am it's quite fast...not as fast as my neighbours old 3G dongle but at least the pages are coming up in about 15 - 20 seconds. Come 8 or 9am it just 'slumps' to a 30 - 40 second crawl and remains like that until about 10 - 12pm.

If I call for a web-site that has a lot of small pictures, I can count each picture as it loads at about 1 picture per second.

Monday morning is just such a disaster that I don't even bother going online after 8am.

Hopefully, the new (and cheaper) WI-FI system that has just arrived in the area will be better and I can kick Tooway into touch in November.
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europe-satellite.com
Ex Member


Reply #16 - May 19th, 2012 at 1:46pm  
Quote:
I'm convinced it's something to do with the amount of people using the system. If I go on at 3 or 4am it's quite fast...not as fast as my neighbours old 3G dongle but at least the pages are coming up in about 15 - 20 seconds. Come 8 or 9am it just 'slumps' to a 30 - 40 second crawl and remains like that until about 10 - 12pm.

If I call for a web-site that has a lot of small pictures, I can count each picture as it loads at about 1 picture per second.

Monday morning is just such a disaster that I don't even bother going online after 8am.

Hopefully, the new (and cheaper) WI-FI system that has just arrived in the area will be better and I can kick Tooway into touch in November.

...
Tooway KA-SAT ka band system near Nantes, France.

We did a 2 weeks ago an install of a Tooway KA-SAT system close to Nantes in France (Beam Blue) without any problems, click on http://www.satsig.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=tooway;action=display;num=13372...

Check your MODEN and TRIA status, it shows you at least your signal info etc.

WiFi

...

If you have a proper and reliable WiFi provider it is always better to use this kind of service, satellite is a last option if you don't have any other. Using WiFi, at least the latency goes down from about 650 msec to less than 100 msec.

But ..................... you live in Spain and we have seen over the years many problems with WiFi providers, check out you get a good one because there are to many bad ones in Spain (mainly run by ex-pats). Iberbanda is a good one (Spanish) but we have heard also horror stories about them. Happy users but also lots of not so happy users with similar problems as yours !
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« Last Edit: May 19th, 2012 at 3:03pm by N/A »  
 
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pladecalvo
Ex Member


Reply #17 - May 19th, 2012 at 4:04pm  
The WI-FI installers are 'SATELVEX S.A. (Spanish company) They say that we can try the service for two weeks and if we are not satisfied we can cancel the 12 month contract although we will not get the installation fee back.

There is nobody in this area that has had it installed yet but we do know of many in an area about 20km from here that have and are very happy with it. At 15 per month for 3mg download speed and unlimited volume, it beats the pants off Tooway.
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europe-satellite.com
Ex Member


Reply #18 - May 19th, 2012 at 4:14pm  
Quote:
The WI-FI installers are 'SATELVEX S.A. (Spanish company) They say that we can try the service for two weeks and if we are not satisfied we can cancel the 12 month contract although we will not get the installation fee back.

There is nobody in this area that has had it installed yet but we do know of many in an area about 20km from here that have and are very happy with it. At 15 per month for 3mg download speed and unlimited volume, it beats the pants off Tooway.

I cannot find a website of SATELVEX, typical for Spanish companies but it is not a good sign. Any company involved with communications like this should be represented on Internet in 2012.

If nobody has a system in your area it means there is no transmitter nearby (line of sight), 20 KM can be done with proper equipment (antennas) but I dont think you get this speed (20km) and I don't think it is unlimited.

Its good to try it first but without paying any fee, in your case I would ask them to test the signal first before they install anything.

Some satellite providers advertise also with unlimited services but ............. the speed goes down when you pass your monthly limits, this is not unlimited Smiley

Any professional network (satellite, wifi, adsl) providing a shared service has to limit (control bandwidth) users to give everybody a fair share, this can not be done with an unlimited service.

Don't sign any contract in Spain unless your Spanish is fluent or you have consulted a lawyer. If they offer you a test period of 2 weeks it is not unnecessary to sing any contract upfront, this can be done after 2 weeks if you are happy with the service.
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pladecalvo
Ex Member


Reply #19 - May 19th, 2012 at 4:26pm  
Quote:
Check your MODEN and TRIA status, it shows you at least your signal info etc.


Instal Fig:

Rx SNR: 14.63
Peak SNR: 14.65

MODEM
RX Power: -33.5
Rx SNR: 14.6
Cable Resistance: 1.0 ohm.
Cable Attenuation: 6.0db

TRIA
Tx IF Power: -27.1 dbm
Tx RF Power: 29.7 dbm
Temp: 50
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pladecalvo
Ex Member


Reply #20 - May 19th, 2012 at 4:33pm  
Quote:
I cannot find a website of SATELVEX, typical for Spanish companies but it is not a good sign. Any company involved with communications like this should be represented on Internet in 2012.

If nobody has a system in your area it means there is no transmitter nearby (line of sight), 20 KM can be done with proper equipment (antennas) but I dont think you get this speed (20km) and I don't think it is unlimited.

Its good to try it first but without paying any fee, in your case I would ask them to test the signal first before they install anything.

Some satellite providers advertise also with unlimited services but ............. the speed goes down when you pass your monthly limits, this is not unlimited Smiley

Any professional network (satellite, wifi, adsl) providing a shared service has to limit (control bandwidth) users to give everybody a fair share, this can not be done with an unlimited service.

Don't sign any contract in Spain unless your Spanish is fluent or you have consulted a lawyer. If they offer you a test period of 2 weeks it is not unnecessary to sing any contract upfront, this can be done after 2 weeks if you are happy with the service.
Thanks for that info. Apparently, they are frantically putting up a 'repeater'(?) boxes everywhere and will install one in the area soon.

I certainly won't sign any 12 month contract until I try it. Next week, I hope to be going to see someone that has already had it installed.
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europe-satellite.com
Ex Member


Reply #21 - May 19th, 2012 at 4:47pm  
Quote:
Thanks for that info. Apparently, they are frantically putting up a 'repeater'(?) boxes everywhere and will install one in the area soon.

I certainly won't sign any 12 month contract until I try it. Next week, I hope to be going to see someone that has already had it installed.

I am not a specialist in large commercial public WiFi networks but if the main base station is 20KM away they need to setup a new base station nearby your location (communicating with the main hub) to service you and other users in your area. Using X repeaters over a distance of 20KM will not work. If you are the only user in your area I don't think they will invest in a new professional base station.

Beside above, I am sure you are aware of the electricity problems in Spain, if one of the repeaters goes down you don't have any connection at all (this is worse than a slow Tooway system), to many links in the chain. Maybe you should keep your satellite system installed, at least as a backup !

With a professional satellite system you should never have any problems unless heavy rain. We have been using at our previous location for more than 6 years a satellite system ourselves and never any real problems, there is no better way to communicate unless you have a good connection to a land-line or WiFi network.

Try also http://www.iberbandainenglish.com

Good luck and keep us informed.

ps. If you trow away your Tooway system, we are happy to pick it up, I am sure there is nothing wrong with the hardware.
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pladecalvo
Ex Member


Reply #22 - May 19th, 2012 at 5:21pm  
Quote:
Thanks but there is no coverage in this area.

"ps. If you trow away your Tooway system, we are happy to pick it up, I am sure there is nothing wrong with the hardware."

I was thinking of asking the dustbin truck driver to drive over it!! Ha-Ha!

What did you think about the readings I have in post 19?
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