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Tooway in moscow?

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Aug 17th, 2009 at 8:40pm  
Hello,

Is there any "how to" that explains how I have to line up my Tooway Ku band antenna to get it work.
If somebody has already installed the system please provide the reference.
Technical local guy failed to line up the dish. I'm not even sure that he has found Eurobird 3. He has found something but what? Modem's TX indicator never flashes.
I tried myself also with no success. Satellite finder (cheep one) works great. But the indicator is still off.

Where is the problem? Coverage? Antenna assembly? Alignment? Modem?
Modem's (SM1101-02) web interface is not very helpful. I've found only tracking info about scanning plus modem's MAC address, plus some configuration settings. There is an admin page but the access requires password. Not even sure how the page can be useful for me.

many thanks,
alexander
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Reply #1 - Aug 18th, 2009 at 5:00am  
Hello,

Can anybody confirm that Tooway service is available in Moscow from Eurobird 3? And the signal is strong enough to make SM1101 work with 96 dish.

sincerely,
alexander
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Reply #2 - Aug 18th, 2009 at 9:35am  
Quote:
Hello,

Can anybody confirm that Tooway service is available in Moscow from Eurobird 3? And the signal is strong enough to make SM1101 work with 96 dish.

sincerely,
alexander


Hi Alexander,

Look at the following link for a KU footprint.
http://www.europe-satellite.com/EMS/systems/systems16.htm
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Reply #3 - Aug 18th, 2009 at 3:00pm  
Hello,

Very difficult to see. Even cant find the Moscow town. Simple answer Y/N will be enough.
Well, this is useful site. I see clearly that Ku band service is on EB3 33E.

It still an open question for me. for now there is no connection. TX indicator dead.
Awaiting local gurus to line up the antenna on EB 3. The first guy failed to do it.

Definitely antenna works. No doubt. Is the signal strong enough to work on 96 dish. I mean both directions (RCV/SND)

you are welcome with any help!

alexander
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Eric Johnston
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Reply #4 - Aug 18th, 2009 at 3:27pm  
There are some larger scale footprints here Tooway satellite for EB-3 Ku band

There is a north east spot beam but I don't know if Tooway is operating in that spot beam.  If it is then Moscow might just be possible at the beam edge.  You need to be in both a downlink and uplink coverage beam.  Please tell us the outcome.

Best regards, Eric.
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Reply #5 - Aug 18th, 2009 at 7:39pm  
Hello,

You mean EB3 C spot.
Unfortunately, with this kind of precision we can only guess.
Do you know about polarity of the beam?
It's not circular one. From where comes the difficulty with installation. Not only find the satellite but to find its polarity.


alexander
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Reply #6 - Aug 18th, 2009 at 8:19pm  
According to Lyngsat there is a big Skylogic 27.5 Msps downlink carrier on Vertical polarisation in Spot C beam.

From Moscow the pointing angles are elevation=26.4 deg and polarisation +3 deg clockwise (looking towards the satellite) which is approx due south.  Assuming the Ku band LNB is on a normal OMT/filter side arm the initial feed polarisation setting, for vertical polarisation, is with the LNB at the side. If it is on the right hand side (facing towards the satellite) then push it down a fraction to get the +3 deg clockwise adjustment.

The Lyngsat map http://www.lyngsat-maps.com/maps/images/eb3_spotc.gif suggests that a 1.2m - 1.5m dish might be needed in Moscow.

Best regards, Eric.
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« Last Edit: Aug 19th, 2009 at 8:44am by Eric Johnston »  
 
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Reply #7 - Aug 19th, 2009 at 5:42am  
Hello,

ViaSat LNB(PN CL0005555) has a groove, Inside there is an antenna (looking like a stick, pin, bolt) shifted from the centre of LNB for quarter of canal size. LNB can be mounted in 2 different ways on OMT. Do you know what is the difference if any. What is the right position for LNB?

thank you,
alexander
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Reply #8 - Aug 19th, 2009 at 8:41am  
The pin is a quarter wave dipole and is the actual antenna that changes electric current in the wire to an electromagnetic field in the rectangular waveguide.

The line of the pin is the direction of polarisation.

If the pin is vertical then vertical polarisation is produced. It makes no difference if the pin is at the top or bottom.

If the pin is horizontal then horizontal polarisation is produced.  It makes no difference if the pin points to the left or right.

If you think about it as you rotate the polarisation using the entire feed/LNB/BUC assembly in its yoke you are rotating the pin also.  Positions 180 deg from each other produce the same result.

Best regards, Eric.
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Reply #9 - Aug 21st, 2009 at 7:22pm  
Hello,

Well, the installer has found the satellite. But the signal is too weak. He would say that he see the noise only. he has found 10970, 10981, 11127, 1115X transponders. he told me about 1,8M or 2M antenna to make it work.
He use SATLOOK DIGITAL NIT.

What to do? Buy 2M, 3M, ... XM antenna?
Seriously. Any suggestions please.
what I can say for sure is that Tooway cant operate on 1.0M antenna in Moscow.

alexander
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Reply #10 - Aug 21st, 2009 at 8:03pm  
What is the downlink frequency of Tooway in Spot C ?

Lyngsat lists just a Skylogic carrier at 12522 MHz, Vertical, 27.5 Msps. 

To receive that you would need a High-band LNB 11.3 GHz local oscillator freq. L band carrier freq = 1222 MHz.   

Using a SATLOOK, which goes up to around 2050 MHz, a regular universal TV LNB would work with LO=10.6 GHz and carrier at L band = 1922 MHz.

Best regards, Eric.
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Reply #11 - Aug 21st, 2009 at 10:00pm  
Hello,

Tooway has shipped LNB 12.25-12.75 Ghz, LO=11.3Ghz. It's look okay.
12522V is exactly what I asked the installer to find.  He has found some transponders.
if we looked at display the curve goes down at high frequencies and we see nothing but only noise. Even for transponders he has found it's very difficult to see the signal.
He told me that it's exactly 33. Is there the way to be sure? I'm not an installer.
Well, Two installers now failed to make work the modem. Or they have a problem to line up the dish. They are unable to see a clear signal. They want a bigger dish! Sky has no limits but not my budget.
Might be in fact they are right? if there is no coverage how to find it?
I could buy a bigger dish but will it work? What size? Will uplink work with BUC i have on 1.0M dish?

alexander
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Reply #12 - Aug 21st, 2009 at 11:10pm  
See this coverage map: http://www.lyngsat-maps.com/maps/eb3_spotc.html

It looks to me that Moscow is on about the 42 dBW contour, with suggested dish sizes from 120 to 150 cm.  

I should warn that such maps and dish sizes are estimates only and I would try a 1.8m dish next.

The LNB with 11.3 GHz local oscillator is correct.   The output frequency of the wanted carrier into the cable should be 12522 - 11300 = 1222 MHz.  

33 deg east refers to the satellite location in the orbit.

For vertical receive polarisation the LNB side arm should be sticking out sideways. While you face towards the satellite, if the side arm is on the right the LNB should be pulled downwards a small amount (+3 deg clockwise).  if the LNB side arm is on the left the LNB should be puched upwards a small amount (+3 deg clockwise).   If the LNB is at the top then you are horizontal polarisation and you will not see the wanted signal at all.   Making the fine adjustment +3 deg will make no measurable difference to the wanted signal.

Best regards, Eric.
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« Last Edit: Aug 25th, 2009 at 8:11pm by Eric Johnston »  
 
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Reply #13 - Aug 24th, 2009 at 6:31pm  
Hello,

Tried to find Channel Master 1.8M dish in Moscow with no success. Local stores sell russian made SUPRAL dish. Only one my concern is would such dish work with LNB/BUC/Feed assembly I've received from BW. I think it should.

alexander
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Reply #14 - Aug 25th, 2009 at 10:16am  
I'm not sure you have yet actually detected the correct satellite.

Regarding the locally manufactured SUPRAL dish it would be ideal if you bought a feed horn and support arms that come with the dish, so that the focal length is correct and the feed horn diameter matches the dish geometry.  This is particularly important if the SUPRAL dish is axisymmetric (i.e truly circular with the feed on the centreline axis and stood on equal length legs).  Check that the circular waveguide flanges are compatible.

If the SUPRAL dish is an offset design (slightly elliptical in outline and the feed assembly on a strong support arm attached to the bottom of the dish with possibly two thinner struts of shorter length) then the old feed horn will be suitable.

Axisymmetric dishes tend to have a short Focal length to Diameter ratio (F/D ratio), say 0.4 - 0.5, and need a small diameter feed.  Offset dishes have longer F/D ratios like 0.6 and 0.8 and need larger diameter feed horns.

SUPRAL is a special sandwich metal sheet with a low melting point alloy in the middle and pure aluminium surfaces either side.  A sheet of SUPRAL is clamped in a outer rim frame, heated and then vacuum formed onto a mold.  When cooled, the thin pure aluminium skins deters corrosion.

Best regards, Eric.
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« Last Edit: Aug 25th, 2009 at 8:11pm by Eric Johnston »  
 
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Reply #15 - Aug 25th, 2009 at 3:11pm  
Hello,

thank you for advice,
Do you know that SUPRAL dishes are Rx only. Nothing known about transmission. I think they they should work, but they can fail as well.

As I mentioned early the installers see some source of signal but they are unable to provide me signal/noise ratio. I tried with 3 different installers. They work for different companies. What can I do?

I told last installer to set 12522 on his SATLOOK micro and find the satellite. No success. Not found. They are able to peak TV channels. Nothing more.

I've found that Prodelin Rx/Tx antenna is available on russian market as well. Some doubt about feed horn. I think I cant use the mine(andrew). If you have an experience with Prodelin antennas, please send you feedback. I ll prefer to go with truly Rx/Tx antenna rather then with mysterious SUPRAL Rx only dish.

kind regards,
alexander
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Reply #16 - Aug 25th, 2009 at 4:00pm  
The SATLOOK is an L band device 950 - 2050 MHz and is normally used with a domestic universal LNB with switchable local oscillators of 9.75 and 10.6 GHz.  If a satellite frequency is entered , then the SATLOOK calculates the actual L band frequency in the cable, based on which LNB local oscillator frequency is activated, using 22 kHz tone.

When used for VSAT work it I would prefer to operate a SATLOOK in L band mode and read the L band frequency on the screen and do the maths in my head.  Alternatively, it may be possible to input your special local oscillator frequency into the SATLOOK, i.e.  11300 MHz and get it to do the calculation with 12522 MHz from the satellite = 1222 MHz into the cable.  I don't
know the deep menu options on a SATLOOK, I have never used a SATLOOK.

It should be possible to see on the spectrum of several Russian TV channels from Eutelsat W4 at 36 east, see: http://www.lyngsat.com/ew4.html

These carriers are right hand or left hand circular polarisation so are unlikely to be decodable but should be very clear and high level so that W4 satellite can be confirmed.

EB3, at 33 east, is the next satellite along to the right.

Best regards, Eric.
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Reply #17 - Aug 25th, 2009 at 4:45pm  
Hello,

36 satellite is quite familiar for me now. I ll never forget it. Its signal is like the sun.

First equiped me with satellite finder, then all 3 installers with more expensive tools start from it and go west toward  astra. They have found something but they cant find 12522 transponder at all. All three.

I have no such equipment. They work about a hour or two with no results then say goodbye.

But the result of installation is only one.
1) no transponder 12522
2) dish is pointed to the same direction (they have found something)

I can surely try once again. Might be the signal is too weak so we dont see it clearly, but only noise.

thank you,
alexander
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Reply #18 - Aug 25th, 2009 at 5:29pm  
I agree, try again.

Make sure the analyser centre frequency is 1222 MHz and look for the spectrum pattern above.

The LNB arm should be sticking out sideways, to receive vertical polarisation.

A 1.8m dish will make a marginal (and very clearly identifiable) signal into an acceptable one.    If nothing is detectable you are wasting your time with a 1.8m dish.

Can you get your Tooway service provider to verify the downlink carrier you are supposed to receive ?  Is it the one we guessed i.e. 12522 MHz Vertical 27.5 Msps ?   I believe the Tooway modem has a rather slow process for finding the wanted carrier so it may take some time to lock up.

If you use a cheap satellite meter it will give a very big peak on W4 at 36 east as there are many high power carriers.   It will give a hardly visible peak on EB3 33 E as the are very few, and rather low power, carriers visible (here).  A magnifing glass may be needed to detect the peak, but it should be there.

The wanted EB3 satellite is 3.5 deg to the right of W4 and at the same elevation angle.

If still nothing I wonder about your Andrew dish.  Are the feed arm arm struts the right parts, is mis-assembly possible  (like wrong holes for the side struts) ?   Does the feed horn actually point towards the centre of the reflector ?  To resolve this a photo taken with the camera exactly inline with the side of the dish enables the photo to be measured.   The crossed fishing line test (up/down and across the front of the dish) will identify any distortion due to the weight of the feed assembly.  Some Andrew dishes have two short rear side struts.  These have an enlarged hole at one end to allow a few mm adjustment so as to pull the sides of the dish backwards and correct any distortion.

Best regards, Eric.
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Reply #19 - Aug 25th, 2009 at 8:14pm  
I've just been looking again for the satellite and now see a different spectrum, with just the wanted carrier ?.

I've deleted the earlier pictures.  If I can get reliable plot I will insert here.  I'm not getting consistent results right now. My antenna is moving about !

...

Best regards, Eric.
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« Last Edit: Aug 25th, 2009 at 9:19pm by Eric Johnston »  
 
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Reply #20 - Aug 27th, 2009 at 8:32am  
Hello,

I've checked the dish distortion. It's about 1.5mm. I have Channel Master 1.0M dish that doesn't allow to change its geometry. There are no struts on the back side.

Well, forth installer had a problem to find the satellite. The result is still the same. TX indicator is dead. We lined up the antenna to EB3 but were unable to receive 12522. The signal is too weak to be understood by Golden Interstar GI 500 Pro. Setting 12522 and sweeping the sky around has no result.

A simple, cheep Satellite Finder locates the satellite by measuring overall power.
Following spectrum is shown on GI500pro. ...
As you can see the signal is about -44dbm. 1M dish is clearly too small to make the modem work.

thank you,
alexander
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Reply #21 - Aug 27th, 2009 at 10:51am  
I am unable to recognise that spectrum.

I was expecting to see a spectrum more like this:
...

If you use a very short (i.e.lower loss) cable the noise floor and the signal should go up at bit, like below.  Note that your LNB has local oscillator of 11.3 GHz and input band 12.25-12.75 GHz and output band 950 MHz - 1450 MHz.
...

Such a spectrum will give a negligible reading on a cheap broadband power meter because only one (or very few) carriers are present. Thus my suggestion to use a magnifing glass to detect the needle movement.

The two spectrum picture above are hand drawn to make it look like what I expect you should see.  They are not real menasurements.  Some additional carriers may be visible.

Below is my actual receive spectrum, scaled in width to be similar to the above.  Note I cannot make measurements above 12650 MHz.  I can see only one carrier, at 12522 MHz Vertical.  I'm hoping that might be yours.
...
My antenna is about 80cm and according to the Spot C map http://www.lyngsat-maps.com/maps/eb3_spotc.html my downlink power is 46dBW, yours is 42 dBW so you should see a lower hump in the same place.  Once you can see that hump it will be possible tojudge what larger size antenna you need to make it receivable.  If you can't see it all then there will be no hope and point in getting a larger antenna.

Please confirm:
Name and model number of your LNBs.
(done by email
VIASAT CL0005555-01 12.25-12.75 LO=11.3
NEC2654H  12.25-12.75  LO=11.3 )
and from your service provider...
The name of the satellite you were told to point at.
The downlink polarisation you were told to set.
The downlink frequency you were told to expect to see.

The image below is Vertical receive polarisation.
...

Best regards, Eric.
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« Last Edit: Aug 27th, 2009 at 2:45pm by Eric Johnston »  
WWW  
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Reply #22 - Aug 27th, 2009 at 1:27pm  
Thank you for your efforts.
I've sent  you HW via mail. if it's okay. And I think it is. Thus it mean low level professionally of all 4 installers. Bottom line: they are unable to locate the satellite even with these magic tools. I burn the money/time trying to get help locally.
Or I misunderstand how LNB works and why you got different spectrum with the same dbm.

any references to local guys who knows job are welcome.
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Reply #23 - Aug 27th, 2009 at 7:24pm  
I've edited messages and images above.

It is not suprising that it is difficult to find.  There appears to be just one tiny weak carrier to be found.   

Coverage maps are uncertain in the outer contours and if the predicted level is 42 dBW, it could be several dB either way in reality and may vary as it is not easy to keep the satellite beam pointed accurately at the earth.

One way or other, we will have found out if Tooway work as far east as Moscow.

Best regards, Eric.
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Reply #24 - Aug 28th, 2009 at 7:48am  
Hello,

I was on an earth satellite station and we have tried with 1.2 and 1.8 dishes.
The station is a very spectacular place! Never seen it before. Just imagine 9M  antennas surrounding you everywhere. All kind of antenna, small and big. Cool!

The system works with 1.8 dish!
Upstream stream signal/noise 0.0 db
Downstream signal/noise 6.0 db
rx power  -44 dbmV
Network eb3-c5
ip address 10.97.157.124

But activation doesn't work.
why?

activation works with 4 W BUC.
Upstream stream signal/noise 7.9 db
Downstream signal/noise 7.0 db
rx power  -43 dbmV
tx power -15.8
Network eb3-c5

Try to give you an answer: Do you need a 1.8 dish plus 4W BUC?

In my mind 1.8 dish is a kind of professional one and a regular consumer is doing better of avoiding such installation if possible. Pricing for 4W BUC is twice you pay for 2W one. And we know nothing about compatibility of 4W BUC with Tooway modem SM1101-20. On top of that signal/noise is far from being perfect for 5/6 correction. See the explanation given above "it is not easy to keep the satellite beam ..." this explains why we have to wait quite a  long time (3 scan cycles) even with 1.8M dish to get modem connected.

Bottom line:
Tooway system is not available for a regular consumer in Moscow!

alexander efremov
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« Last Edit: Sep 3rd, 2009 at 6:54am by N/A »  
 
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